Zompist Bboard Again

Man in Space wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 5:36 pm

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 4:14 pmAlWaleed bin Talal is a fascinating figure. He was one of those mirrored-sunnies and gold-plated-car kids, and now he's presenting himself as an elder statesman. He founded the AlWaleed bin Talal Center for Christian Muslim Understanding at Georgetown, which produces very subtly pro-Saudi research. And of course, he's very active on Twitter.

Surely you mean "mirrored-Sunnis"? He is from the Al Saud, they tend to be Wahhabists…

I Shia problem with your response.

I thought this was a good place to discuss the recent ownership change of Twitter. Many of the folks I follow (and follow me) are leaving - or at least pausing their activity - and moving on to Mastodon.

My opinion on the new owner of Twitter is that he realized how idiotic his idea to buy the platform and that's why he wanted to back-out of the deal, and since the purchase has now gone through, he very much has buyer's remorse. I do not see how this ends well for anyone, users, or Musk. I am fairly convinced that this means Twitter will fade into the ether over the next few years.

masako wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 6:52 pm I thought this was a good place to discuss the recent ownership change of Twitter. Many of the folks I follow (and follow me) are leaving - or at least pausing their activity - and moving on to Mastodon.

Have you found a good Mastodon server? I understand that people can follow someone anywhere, but for a local community it'd be nice to have one with multiple conlangers.

My opinion on the new owner of Twitter is that he realized how idiotic his idea to buy the platform and that's why he wanted to back-out of the deal, and since the purchase has now gone through, he very much has buyer's remorse. I do not see how this ends well for anyone, users, or Musk. I am fairly convinced that this means Twitter will fade into the ether over the next few years.

Or months. Already he screwed the pooch on revenue for 2023. Rather than reassuring advertisers, he is antagonizing them— I've heard that some advertisers cancelled during the meeting intended to woo/reassure them.

Firing half the staff, scaring off advertisers, destroying the verification program, and chasing off anyone to the left of Joe Manchin are all ways to throw his $44 billion in the toilet. All this to re-create Parler, which he could have had for peanuts.

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:02 pm Have you found a good Mastodon server?

No, but I'm absurdly novice re Mastodon, so I'm not the best person to ask.

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:02 pm I understand that people can follow someone anywhere, but for a local community it'd be nice to have one with multiple conlangers.

The "follow" feature seems to work very much the same as on Twitter, but I agree, a community based server would be very preferable.

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:02 pm All this to re-create Parler, which he could have had for peanuts.

Or, to continue his financial support of the former president, he could have just rescued Truth Social from itself...at least for a while.

One explanation I heard borders on conspiracy theory, but it's one of the few that actually makes sense: Musk being Twitter is part of an elaborate conspiracy theory.

I think Twitter was already kind of dying before Musk. My own use of it slowly declined over the past few years -- my main complaint is that content I'm interested is simply drowned in all the inane debate.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 5:28 amI think Twitter was already kind of dying before Musk. My own use of it slowly declined over the past few years -- my main complaint is that content I'm interested is simply drowned in all the inane debate.

I believe there was a report which came out last year which indicated that their base of "power users" (i.e. the small percentage with lots of followers who tweet regularly) was dwindling even as the total number of users was still increasing.

The heart of the problem is that it's probably the worst platform out there in terms of rewarding content creators. The whole King/Musk spat highlighted this in a way I haven't seen discussed enough: King was absolutely right when he said, "You should pay me." One of the main reasons folks are on Twitter (and thus subject to seeing the advertisements they sell to keep the lights on) is to follow and interact with celebrities (including Twitter-only celebrities). Without them, it's not much more than an overgrown Discord server. Ironically, despite being one of those people who people join Twitter just to follow (and/or troll), Musk doesn't show any understanding of this fact.

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:02 pmFiring half the staff, scaring off advertisers, destroying the verification program, and chasing off anyone to the left of Joe Manchin are all ways to throw his $44 billion in the toilet.

Although I'm getting a lot of schadenfreude from the blowback on verification (the reactions to his schoolmarmish post yesterday about strictly enforcing the "impersonation" ban were giving me life last night), it's his beyond-short-sighted staff reductions which have really impressed me. Already there are reports that laid-off employees are being begged to return before critical infrastructure breaks. Many former Tweeps give it a week at most before the whole site goes down because someone isn't deleting data from a particular disk drive somewhere or performing some other bit of routine maintenance that's so far off Musk's radar it might as well be in the Earth's core.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 10:48 am Already there are reports that laid-off employees are being begged to return before critical infrastructure breaks. Many former Tweeps give it a week at most before the whole site goes down because someone isn't deleting data from a particular disk drive somewhere or performing some other bit of routine maintenance that's so far off Musk's radar it might as well be in the Earth's core.

This. All of this.

He fancies himself an idea man, with genius level ability to parse any/all technologies. Imagine the absolute horrific realization that something as banal as data deletion brings his egocentric wet-dream to a screeching halt. This, after one of Stephen Colbert's best jokes about the situation; "This week Elon Musk finalized his purchase of Twitter for $44B...just ahead of the next highest offer...nothing."

It's almost criminal to delight this much in the train-wreck that is this particular douche-bag.

I wrote a blog entry on burning money, the KLF, Twitter, and my Twitter policy: https://zompist.wordpress.com/2022/11/12/twitterfire/

In short, if you want to see where I am on social media, it'll be listed on zompist.com. The ZBB isn't going anywhere, either. But Twitter might.

I was not loving Twitter for a long time before Musk's advent. I barely use my Twitter account, although I have to agree with Mark's summary in that it's been particularly invaluable in following current events like the war in Ukraine. That value is about to drop sharply, I think.

I don't know that I have the heart to stick around and watch Twitter gradually boil itself (or Elon Musk gradually boil himself) until the platform is no longer viable, comical as Musk's evident ineptitude admittedly is. I did start up a Mastodon account, but I'm not sure of sticking around on an instance I basically chose at random; in many ways, Mastodon reminds me of old-timey Usenet with a more advanced infrastructure, and I want to wait until the people looking for it to be a "Twitter substitute" lose interest before I really start sussing it out.

There are a lot of things about Twitter that I came to despise in the long term: in particular the platform's structure that incentivized clout-chasing, gamified serotonin release, and effectively discouraged actual conversation. It was a fine platform for people with something to sell -- I myself came there b/c I was supposed to be marketing product -- but I really want a place to find people to actually converse with who know things that I don't know.

On Mastodon, I'll eventually need to find instances and servers that really cater to my interests and have attracted people who also interest me. I remember old-timey Usenet and I know this is doable, but I'm hoping that the tide of Twitter-replacement-seekers washes back out to some extent in a month or two (or maybe more) before I fully get about it.

ekesleight wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 7:54 pm I did start up a Mastodon account, but I'm not sure of sticking around on an instance I basically chose at random

I get that, but from what I understand it's easy to change instances, and your followers (but not your posts) come with. So you should follow me so I can follow you back.

The instances are kind of a weird thing-- it makes you choose something precisely at the moment you have little info to make a choice with. But I think I get the idea. It's supposed to ensure servers are not under any rich douche's future control. And there's some idea of making niche communities, though that aspect can be ignored. The one I'm on is supposed to be mostly sf writers, with some conlangers, so that sounded nice.

zompist wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 10:24 pm

ekesleight wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 7:54 pm I did start up a Mastodon account, but I'm not sure of sticking around on an instance I basically chose at random

I get that, but from what I understand it's easy to change instances, and your followers (but not your posts) come with. So you should follow me so I can follow you back.

Since I haven't made any posts yet, that sounds easy enough. I'll have a look out: an instance with SF writers and conlangers sounds ideal.

Oddly enough, there was a time when Twitter arguably helped me keep my sanity. About eight to ten years ago, during some of the worst periods of my depression, a lot of my remaining human contact was with people with whom I was friendly on Twitter. I kept using it more or less enthusiastically, but even back then, I already regularly did various things to make my timeline less overwhelming. After I had returned to the ZBB, I gradually lost interest in Twitter. I think I already posted it before - over the course of 2020 and 2021, I used Twitter less and less, and eventually disconnected it from my phone. I guess parts of my problem with it were what ekesleight calls the "gamified serotonin release[s]". The original Musk announcement earlier this year was the final straw.

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:41 am Oddly enough, there was a time when Twitter arguably helped me keep my sanity. About eight to ten years ago, during some of the worst periods of my depression, a lot of my remaining human contact was with people with whom I was friendly on Twitter. I kept using it more or less enthusiastically, but even back then, I already regularly did various things to make my timeline less overwhelming. After I had returned to the ZBB, I gradually lost interest in Twitter. I think I already posted it before - over the course of 2020 and 2021, I used Twitter less and less, and eventually disconnected it from my phone. I guess parts of my problem with it were what ekesleight calls the "gamified serotonin release[s]". The original Musk announcement earlier this year was the final straw.

Twitter was pretty cool back then! I think it started going downhill when people with rather strange political ideas started using it en masse. That was, I think ca 2016 -- around Trump's election. I believe at some point Twitter also changed the algorithm, as one way or another, the most offensive content started being promoted more and more.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:11 am I believe at some point Twitter also changed the algorithm, as one way or another, the most offensive content started being promoted more and more.

Why is far-right content called "offensive" when basic justice offends the moral majority more than anyone has ever been offended by anything else?

rotting bones wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:47 pm Why is far-right content called "offensive" when basic justice offends the moral majority more than anyone has ever been offended by anything else?

Uh, have you ever seen what the far-right is saying these days? (To be fair, the far left, though not quite at the same level of outrageous stupidity, is certainly doing its best to catch up.)

rotting bones wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:47 pm

Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:11 am I believe at some point Twitter also changed the algorithm, as one way or another, the most offensive content started being promoted more and more.

Why is far-right content called "offensive" when basic justice offends the moral majority more than anyone has ever been offended by anything else?

What is offensive, and so most likely to provoke outrage engagement, depends on one's morals and politics, so people will get very different things depending on what the algorithm thinks will get them angry, based on what has gotten clicks from people with similar views. The only way to win is not to engage with anything that makes you(gen) angry, or causes other negative emotions. Which can be hard for many people.

linguistcat wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:43 pm

rotting bones wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:47 pm

Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:11 am I believe at some point Twitter also changed the algorithm, as one way or another, the most offensive content started being promoted more and more.

Why is far-right content called "offensive" when basic justice offends the moral majority more than anyone has ever been offended by anything else?

What is offensive, and so most likely to provoke outrage engagement, depends on one's morals and politics, so people will get very different things depending on what the algorithm thinks will get them angry, based on what has gotten clicks from people with similar views. The only way to win is not to engage with anything that makes you(gen) angry, or causes other negative emotions. Which can be hard for many people.

To me, people do not have an intrinsic right to not be offended in and of itself. If people feel offended, they ought to not interact with that which offends them; they have no right to insist that others cave to their demands.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:50 pm

linguistcat wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:43 pm

rotting bones wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:47 pm
Why is far-right content called "offensive" when basic justice offends the moral majority more than anyone has ever been offended by anything else?

What is offensive, and so most likely to provoke outrage engagement, depends on one's morals and politics, so people will get very different things depending on what the algorithm thinks will get them angry, based on what has gotten clicks from people with similar views. The only way to win is not to engage with anything that makes you(gen) angry, or causes other negative emotions. Which can be hard for many people.

To me, people do not have an intrinsic right to not be offended in and of itself. If people feel offended, they ought to not interact with that which offends them; they have no right to insist that others cave to their demands.

I mean, I'm pretty sure we're in agreement. I've been online since I was ... 12 ish? And learned very early how to either avoid things that would cause me actual distress, or that I can literally just, navigate away if I find anything like that. And being offended is a lot less harmful than anything like trauma triggers or the like. But I was just explaining that "both" or really all sides of the matter are being shown things that offends them even if a majority of other folks wouldn't see it as offensive at all. And that most people are going to act on the emotions that get brought up instead of simply clicking the back button and going on with their day.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:32 pm Uh, have you ever seen what the far-right is saying these days? (To be fair, the far left, though not quite at the same level of outrageous stupidity, is certainly doing its best to catch up.)

I'm aware that the far right tries to offend liberal snowflakes, but why must anyone else adopt their terminology? Besides, have you noticed how easily offended they are? If Baudrillard is right about corruption being the only thing that energizes people, then the only way for the left to win may be to offend more people per capita than the right does.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:47 pm

Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:11 am I believe at some point Twitter also changed the algorithm, as one way or another, the most offensive content started being promoted more and more.

Why is far-right content called "offensive" when basic justice offends the moral majority more than anyone has ever been offended by anything else?

Far-right content is actively dangerous on the whole, not just offensive. Twitter was eventually (very, very reluctantly) forced to do something about it for this reason, and even then tended to take action only after the rhetoric had led to something disastrous, as with Trump after his January 6th coup attempt (prior to which Trump had routinely and gleefully violated what were supposed to be the "Twitter Rules" without consequence).

Actually, it's the very minimal nature of what Twitter was willing to do in practice that gave the lie to all the "free speech" carping, which mostly came from right-wingers who had lost their Twitter accounts -- usually due to engaging in constant violent hate speech at a level the platform couldn't ignore -- before it started coming from good old Elon.

The kinda-cool variety of "offensive" that generates hilarity without actually harming or threatening someone has nothing to do with the far right. That's the genre of, say, "Wet-Assed Pussy", which put the wind up a certain sort of person something awful but was otherwise just an unusually frank song about the same subject that four-fifths of pop songs are about. Whether that kind of content was affected by the Twitter algorithm I don't fully know -- it would have been shitty if it was -- but, safe to say Twitter has much bigger problems at this point.