Meet the Mexica!

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Ares Land
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Re: Meet the Mexica!

Post by Ares Land »

Thanks!
Circeus wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:56 pm It's worth mentioning on this topic that (I believe it was mentioned earlier in the thread?) the leveraging of religion as a tool of subjugation was a tactic very familiar to the Mexica!
Indeed. Though I think they were completely unprepared for what was coming; and in fact, the priests' reaction evoke puzzlement and deep anger.
It's possible they expected to be asked to worship the Virgin Mary and the Christian God along with the existing pantheon -- which probably explains some truly weird bits in Bernal Diaz's account, like a suggestion to set up a chapel to the Virgin Mary on top of Huitzilopochtli and Tlaloc's pyramid.
Insisting that all the gods were demons was completely unprecedented -- the closest they ever came to that was relegating Quetzalcoatl to a secondary place; indeed in myth Quetzalcoatl was defeated by Tezcatlipoca - yet he remained an important god.
They hadn't ever met, I believe, a religion that couldn't be reconciled with their own -- no one had ever insisted on monotheism. Mesoamericans could be more or less enthusiastic about human sacrifice, and undoubtedly the Mexica were among the most zealous ones, but no one ever objected to it in principle.

I'm not even sure they understood what the fuss was all about. The Christian God had led a chosen people to a new land, demanded human sacrifice and sacrificed himself (*), was omnipresent, all-powerful and quite demanding. The Mexica theologians felt quite insulted by the notion that all of this was new to them!
rotting bones
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Re: Meet the Mexica!

Post by rotting bones »

Great thread. I read it all. I shouldn't have done that. I'm behind as it is.
Ares Land
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Re: Meet the Mexica!

Post by Ares Land »

Thanks a lot rotting bones! More productivity-killers are coming, I'm afraid...

Marriage

Girls usually marry at 14 -- pretty late for Mesoamerica, and indeed for many premodern cultures -- men some years later, around 21, after schooling in calmecac or telpochcalli has given them 'a face, a heart' and 'a hear solid as a rock'.

Marriages are arranged by the fathers; indeed both extended families are consulted. Women elders serve as intermediaries. Marriage proposals are made as follows: elderly relatives of the groom-to-be show up at the bride's house and make the proposal to the girl's parents. The parents will refuse: they'll make quite a show of respect and grateful but the girl, they insist, is good for nothing, dumb all over and a little ugly on the side(*). After much pleasantries are exchanged, the intermediary leaves but, they say, they will be back the next day.
Much of the same happens on the next day. Foiled again, the intermediaries will be back.
A few days later, they come back, and again offer marriage. Once again, the parents will insist on the girls' characters faults; they truly feel sorry for the groom to be, but if he insists on marrying her, of course, they agree, and they can't believe their luck: they'd never have though their hopeless, lazy, good-for-nothing of a daughter could have ever hoped to marry such a fine young man (although is he quite right in the head, to be so smitten with such an ordinary girl?)

All of this is Nahua politeness in action. Of course the bride's parents think no such thing of their daughter! But to the Nahua, it's bad manners to brag and just to be sure, they'll go to the other extreme of self-abasement. An example of this: Moctezuma II reportedly offered his throne to Cortés (unwittingly providing him with a legal fig leaf for destroying an entire civilization). If he ever said so (we only have Cortés' word for it), he probably meant 'Bless your heart', in the Southern US acceptation of the phrase.

The Mexica tied the knot both figuratively and literally. The bride is carried to the grooms' home (his parents' place, really) on the back of one of the elder women who previously arranged for the match: carrying people on the back has strong ritual overtones, as we'll say when I get to the sacrifices.
Bride and groom sit on the same mat, in front of the hearth (three stones around a fire, serving as support for "pans" and pots). An offering of incense (in Mesoamerica, that meant copal, fossilized resin) is made to Xiuhtecuhtli, the Turquoise Lord, the god of fire. (Also known as Huehueteotl, the Old God, he's really an aspect of the creator Dual God). Then the groom's cape is tied to the bride's clothes (in cueitl, in huipilli , the skirt, the blouse. Also an example of difrasismo a very common Nahuatl literary device where an idea -- here, womanhood -- is expressed by two of its qualities.)

Of course, a banquet is held; traditionally tamales are served(Very much like our own, though as befit the location in the middle of the lake, the menu could include frog or axolotl tamales). The elders get to make ponderous speeches and get very drunk on pulque.
The marriage isn't consummated right away. Instead the newly married are left in a room to fast, do penance and meditate. For that reason, it was common to hold another banquet on the fifth day as well.

A sidenote on those ponderous speeches. Much of what we know of Mexica society and values has been transmitted to us in the form of speeches (or sometimes, poetry, though the poetic aspect tends to be lost in translation). The Nahua valued oratory and eloquence greatly; to us it sometimes look like a whole lot of pontificating. We have to keep in mind, though, that Nahua writing was at the time in an intermediary stage between proto-writing and true writing. The elders are constently making speeches and giving sermons because it was by far the most important way to transmit culture, techniques and values.
Another sidenote on banquets: dinner parties were serious business indeed. Food was provided in abundance, as was pulque; you always ran the risk of offending a guest or worse, offending the god of banquets and ceremonies, Ome Acatl. (That is, Tezcatlipoca. Ome Acatl, 'Two Reed' is a calendar name; Two Reed is the god's "birthday', so to speak).
Dinner parties are displays of culture and wealth; in fact they were akin to a potlatch. My own personal analysis: they must have served several purposes: impressing, even humilitating the neighbors, reducing jealousy through distribution, and reducing inequalities by the huge expenses involved. The picture I get of the Mexica is that in spite of their wealth and stratified society, they still viewed themselves as austere, frugal and egalitarian hunter-gatherers.

Marital life

It's pretty hard to get a female perspective: we have Spanish sexism on top of Mexica sexism to account for; not to mention 20th century sexism at times (later scholarship tries its best). The husband is supposed to be 'the support, the remedy [...] the eagle, the jaguar', that is, a provider, with an expectation of self-sacrifice (the eagle and jaguar sacrificed themselves at the creation of the sun). He's supposed to be hard-working, and to educate his children, especially in terms of moral values.
The wife cares selflessly for her household. Her life is one of domestic work; she is indeed, 'the slave of everyone in the household'. Girls are trained to go to bed late, and rise early (with additonal midnight prayer time!). That's supposed to prepare them to nursing small children.
The whole extended family lives together; often in a set of small houses around a common courtyard. Society is patriarchal and patrilocal: ie. the wife usually lives with her husband's family. In a patriarchal and patrilocal society, the enforcer isn't the "patriach", who's busy in the fields or at war. The executive officers, so to speak, are mothers-in-law : Sahagún informs us that Mexica mothers-in-law keeps a discreet watch on her daughter-in-law and helped keep the children in line. (It's not just a Mesoamerican thing; judging from my grandmothers' experience, this was true in rural France as well.)

Polygamy

Polygamy was restricted to lords and kings, who could keep any number of concubines. They normally had one primary wife, though Moctezuma is said to have had two. One positive effect is the huge number of royal children, which meant Nahua kings never lacked possible heirs. In theory the most able one would be picked, although there were other considerations as well. (From Axayacatl on, succession alternated consistently between two branches of the royal family). Royal children were also encouraged to learn a trade too (goldsmith was deemed a good profession) which perhaps kept them a bit more grounded than princes usually are. I don't know, really, if that indeed gave better results. Nahua kings seem, on the whole, to have been a competent bunch but native chroniclers would say that, wouldn't they? Reports on the king we know the most about, Moctezuma II, are conflicted (Native reports: failed to take a single decision when foreign thugs with superior weaponry showed up, then collaborated with the enemy, my civilization ended up destroyed, one star out of five, would not recommend. Spanish reports: very nice dude, offered me his throne and gave me plenty of loot and women. Four stars out of five because of weird personal habits -- always talking to an invisible dude he calls 'Tezcatepuca' or something. PS: don't eat the pork chilli.) but he still omes across as charismatic and clever ruler, neither a megalomaniac nor a sociopath, which is more than can be said of most European kings.

For putative writers of dynastic intrigue: seriously consider polygamist rulers. Royal consorts ranged from princesses to ordinary commoners or slaves (those were concubines); which one of the princesses would be the primary wife (that is, the one whose children would continue the dynasty) was of utmost political importance. With often dramatic consequences.
To wit: Chalchiuhnenetzin (Jade Doll) was the primary wife of Nezahualpilli, king of Texcoco and the daughter of Axayacatl, a Mexica king. Axayacatl was succeeded by his brother Tizoc, who died, probably poisoned, a few years after. So Ahuitzotl, the uncle of Jade Doll became king. Ahuitzotl wasn't too fond of Axayacatl, and so Jade Doll was executed for adultery. The hope was that the primary wife would be a grandaughter of Tlacaelel (brother to Mexica kings and cihuacoatl). That didn't happen, unfortunately. The king of Texcoco favoured instead another Tenocha; a noblewoman, but not of the imperial clan. Her son Huexotzincatzin became the heir apparent -- the custom of Texcoco being that sons succeeded their fathers, whereas in Mexica an uncle or brother was the heir. Too bad - he was accused of sleeping with one his father's concubine. Nezahualpilli had no wish to execute his son and heir, but his Mexica opposite number -- Moctezuma II himself! -- insisted on an exemplary trial.
Remember the granddaughter of Tlacaelel? Well, her son Cacamatzin became king of Texcoco. Not a good choice. The succession of Nezahualpilli got close to civil war: Huexotzincatzin (the heir Moctezuma had killed some year before) had full brothers. One of them, Ixtilxochitl would offer an alliance to Cortés a few years later.
With my sincerest apologies to C.S. Lewis: "it's worse than the War of the Roses."

Sex

For some reason, authors tend to imagine a wild sex life for the Mexica. Even the more reasonable ones put sacred prostitutes in. I'm not saying those didn't exist, I'm just saying I never found a trace of them in my own research. The conquistadors weren't happy enough with human sacrifice; they had to add pedophilia to the list of Mexica sins. Finally, there's Gary Jennings, and seriously what was wrong with the guy?
As far as I can see, the sober reality is an ideal of chastity and moderation. Nudity is shameful. Pre-marital sex is right out.

Adultery was severely punished; Nezahualcoyotl (king of Texcoco, father of Nezahualpilli and the ultimate model of the good Nahua king) had them, I believe, crushed under a heavy stone. Women adulterers, I should add, men were sentenced to hanging.
A familiar double standard applies: a woman is expected to be a virgin until marriage, to abstain from sex entirely after having had the requisite number of children, and to be entirely faithful to her husband. Men could stray a little: a male adulterer's real capital crime was sleeping with a married woman.

Polygamy was practiced, but it was for nobles and certainly not for uppity commoners. That exception aside, monogamy and fidelity were expected.

How seriously were these laws enforced? No idea. The two trials I know about: that of Chalchiuhnenetzin and of Huexotzincatzin were clearly high-profile political cases. Huexotzincatzin's only attested crime is singing poems, The reports of Chalchiuhnenetzin's adultery are so over the top (they make for a very good horror vignette in Aztec) that there's very little doubt they're complete fabrications.

Much is made of the fact that the goddess Xochiquetzal and her distaff counterpart Xochipilli are, among other attributes, the patron of prostitution. Myself, I don't see what's so odd about it. Mary Magdalene wasn't a chartered accountant; medieval bishops owned brothels; corporations of prostitutes dedicated cathedral windows.
The evidence I've read is that prostitutes were held in very low esteem. They're deemed shameful women, 'shit whores' as the writers of the Florentine Codex delicately put it (in Nahuatl. The Spanish translations leaves out quite a bit of invective.)

Women shouldn't have illicit sex, period. Men should be careful about sex. The Florentine Codex uses the vivid though unsettling image of a maguey plant cut open for sap. Having sex too early robs a man of his virility; likewise too frequent sex squanders the... what exactly? I don't know, life force, life essence, precious bodily fluids? Female witches will make unsuspecting young men drink aphrodisiacs (some plants growing in the area do have such properties, I believe) and leave them empty and dry.

Finally, many festivals, ceremonies and momentous occasions require fasting and abstinence.

The rules are more lenient for commoners: Nahua society imposed a higher standard of behavior and more severe penances for nobles (a trend that runs counter to common practice in 'early civilizations', as Bruce Trigger defines them). Telpochcalli youths could have concubines -- we don't know about who these concubines were, but Jacques Soustelle interprets it as meaning that young people would live together but delay marriage until they could afford them (a marriage requires a banquet, sometimes two and a good Mexica banquet should leave the host completely broke).

Calmecac students lived as priests and had the same obligations, including complete chastity for male and female students. They had, in any case, penance and fasting to keep their minds off sex.
More: show
A form of penance, or trial by pain: slipping thorns in the penis, between skin and flesh. Supposedly a virgin can endure this without fainting.
Until recently, the commonly accepted view was that the Mexica were violently homophobic. That seems to be the topic of much current research, and unfortunately, many of my references are a little too old-fashioned. To be honest, I'm a little disappointed that I can't say more about the subject.
There are hints that queers, transgenders might have had a place in Mexica society -- not a very prestigious one, but a place nonetheless. As for homosexual attraction, King Axayacatl, smitten by a poet, said to his wives: "Women, stand up and meet him, seat him among you. Here has come your rival." Camilla Townsend, who reports the story in Fifth Sun, suggests that in Mexica society it may have been perfectly natural for a manly, manly man such as Axayacatl to be drawn to men.
vlad
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Re: Meet the Mexica!

Post by vlad »

Ares Land wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:54 amThey're deemed shameful women, 'shit whores' as the writers of the Florentine Codex delicately put it (in Nahuatl. The Spanish translations leaves out quite a bit of invective.)
...what's the original Nahuatl for that? And what part of the Florentine Codex is it from?
Ares Land
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Re: Meet the Mexica!

Post by Ares Land »

I can't remember where I read that translation :( but the Nahuatl text was the part on prostitutes in book 10.

You can check this, though: https://www.google.com/url?q=https://ww ... NpFoV34Jyz
For the idea that prostitutes are 'shitty', it cites book 5, folio 191; book 6 folios 74 and 92.

In any case I'm sure the Nahuatl word is tlahzolli 'trash, refuse, excrement, fertilizer', which is, pardon the pun, all over the place in the FC as a metaphor for sin, especially adultery.

I wish I had the Anderson and Dibble translation and a good Nahuatl transcription. I make do with a 19th century translation of the Spanish text. It's not bad, but it censors anything that would have offended 19th century sensibilities in a fairly comical way.
At one point I have 'coquin' (' rascal') where the Nahuatl is 'cuiloni' ('passive partner in anal sex').
The Nahuatl manuscript is available online, but trying to read it brings much pain and a new found respect for paleography...
rotting bones
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Re: Meet the Mexica!

Post by rotting bones »

Does anyone think the Aztec view of the battlefield lends credibility to the para-feminist notion that masculine violence is somehow connected to uterus envy? I always thought that was bullshit since women themselves don't commonly relish their role in the reproductive cycle. On the other hand, if the battle is the throes of childbirth, the captive is a precious infant and the defeated corpse is a vaginal blossom, that puts a whole new complexion on the hero's journey.

PS. BTW the Indian mother-in-law has an equally fearsome reputation.
Ares Land
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Re: Meet the Mexica!

Post by Ares Land »

rotting bones wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:37 am Does anyone think the Aztec view of the battlefield lends credibility to the para-feminist notion that masculine violence is somehow connected to uterus envy? I always thought that was bullshit since women themselves don't commonly relish their role in the reproductive cycle. On the other hand, if the battle is the throes of childbirth, the captive is a precious infant and the defeated corpse is a vaginal blossom, that puts a whole new complexion on the hero's journey.

PS. BTW the Indian mother-in-law has an equally fearsome reputation.
You're definitely onto something here.

Many women enjoy being pregnant. Childbirth is a painful trial. But it can be seen as empowering, even though Western culture typically doesn't (historically, Western culture even views it as a punishment for the original scene).
The Mexica were sexist; but their attitudes about childbirth were as empowering as it gets. Women get badass rousing speeches, are treated with the respect due to war heroes, and in the worst case scenario, a place as scary powerful godesses in the afterlife.
In some respect, they even handled childbirth better than we do. (Nahua women crouched to give birth, which is more sensible and a lot less painful than lying on your back).

You've already talked about the parallels between childbirth and the battlefield.
To that I would add the dread and reverence with which pregnancy and childbirth were viewed:
- I've talked a little about the tzitzimimeh, the female star-demons. They come from the West, that is, where women who died in childbirth go.
-Pregnant women and children are liable to be possessed, or become tzitzimimeh at dangerous times: the end of a 52-year period or eclipses.
- Some suggest the tzitzimimeh were protectors of pregnant women along with their role of world-devouring cosmic horrors.
- Some generals dressed as tzitzimimeh, by the way.

The divinized women, cihuateteo weren't any more reassuring, by the way. They would steal children, turn men astray, the works.

Finally, young men are advised to stay on guard against ill-intentioned women, keen on stealing their life essence and precious bodily fluids, to rip off Dr. Strangelove.

So you get a society that promotes 'manliness' above all, yet views women with both scorn and reverance, honors them as lifegivers and as destructive cosmic powers and as destroyers of men. We'll never except know what exactly, but there definitely were some psychological issues at play here!
Torco
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Re: Meet the Mexica!

Post by Torco »

So you get a society that promotes 'manliness' above all, yet views women with both scorn and reverance, honors them as lifegivers and as destructive cosmic powers and as destroyers of men. We'll never except know what exactly, but there definitely were some psychological issues at play here!
I don't know, man, that sounds pretty standard: I feel as if that paragraph would be right at home in an intro to social studies textbook under the 'patriarchy' chapter.
Ares Land
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Re: Meet the Mexica!

Post by Ares Land »

Torco wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:48 pm
So you get a society that promotes 'manliness' above all, yet views women with both scorn and reverance, honors them as lifegivers and as destructive cosmic powers and as destroyers of men. We'll never except know what exactly, but there definitely were some psychological issues at play here!
I don't know, man, that sounds pretty standard: I feel as if that paragraph would be right at home in an intro to social studies textbook under the 'patriarchy' chapter.
Yes, again there are a lot of parallels with other cultures. The Abrahamic religions share* with the Mexica the idea that women are close to God but yet should be subservient.

(*)shared?

(While I'm here, the thread's not finished yet, but the next and final installment will be in a few weeks. I want to conclude with religion and human sacrifice but that takes time: I want to get it right.)
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Re: Meet the Mexica!

Post by Pedant »

Ares Land wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:26 am (While I'm here, the thread's not finished yet, but the next and final installment will be in a few weeks. I want to conclude with religion and human sacrifice but that takes time: I want to get it right.)
Looking forward to it! This has been a most enjoyable read--and one that’s cleared up not a small few misconceptions!
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Ares Land
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Re: Meet the Mexica!

Post by Ares Land »

Okay, so a bit more than a few weeks have elapsed...
Zompist's post on etic and emic anthropology got me thinking about human sacrifice, plus I sourced a copy of Anderson and Dibble's translation so yeah... I might write those final installments.

As a taste of things to come sometime, eventually, in the future:
- Marvin Harris' work on possible, natural, environmental-related causes of human sacrifice seem to be dismissed as a matter of routine regarding Mesoamerica. It is, I believe, a little unfair. Long story short: Harris believes human sacrifice is a consequence of cannibalism, itself a consequence of a scarcity in animal protein. The mainstream view is to retort that it can't possibly be true: the Mexica had access to plenty of animal protein.
My own modest view: Harris' view of the Mexica is a little sketchy, but his point holds, I believe. Just because the Mexica had plenty of food when the Spaniards arrived doesn't mean they weren't starving before -- and, as it happens, they went through very bad famines -- cultural behavior may well survive its environmental usefulness. (The ban on pork is widely observed, way beyond its origin ecological area.)
- To the 'etic' and 'emic' distinction (as I understand, material factors of culture vs. culture understood on its own terms) I'd like to add a third category, when authors speculate on what the culture might have thought it was doing. They do this a lot with respect to Mexica human sacrifice.
Keeping in mind I'm an amateur, I'd like to respectfully submit that the Mexica did (tell us very clearly why they did it (or why they thought they had to do it) sacrifice is how the world keeps running, even the gods sacrificed themselves to set the world in motion, and frankly human life is extremely cheap and insignificant.

A slight correction, by the way, which may be of interest for conlangers.
We talked a few months back about that line in the Codex Floresiensis:
iquac ticcaoa quac aca tiquiana iquac ca ie totecuyo, ca totequacauh auh ie toiaouh
when we-him-leave then someone we-him-take, truly already our-lord, truly our-executioner, and he-our-enemy
When we replace the king with another, he's truly our lord, truly our executioner, truly our enemy.

I was frankly, a bit stumped last time by totequacauh. I was able to figure out this time. It means, indeed 'executioner', as given in Anderson & Dibble, but the etymology is interesting.
In a more modern orthography, with vowel length, it's totēcuahcāuh I'd assumed it was related to tēuctli, 'lord'.
Not so. It's in fact a somewhat unexpected possessed form of tēcuah 'it bites people', and the root is cua, to eat. The meaning is 'executioner, someone who carries out orders', said orders being often death sentences. There are various forms, often relating to dangerous animals, especially snakes.
I suppose the lesson here is that massively agglutinating languages with not a lot of phonemes can get really hairy, and that metaphors can bring you very quickly from 'to bite' to venomous snakes to hired goons to kings.
(The general meaning is still that one should speak carefully to the king, what with him being a bad motherfucker and all. There might be a sense that the king is himself the hired goon of that charming divine sociopath, Tezcatlipoca.)

More to come on sacrifices in a few days, work and Covid permitting.
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Re: Meet the Mexica!

Post by Sol717 »

Ares Land wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:27 pm - To the 'etic' and 'emic' distinction (as I understand, material factors of culture vs. culture understood on its own terms) I'd like to add a third category, when authors speculate on what the culture might have thought it was doing.
I'm not sure that third category'd be very useful. Aren't all descriptions of cultures (whether they're etic or emic) speculative and hypothetical to some degree? I'm not meaning to impugn those who make these descriptions; it's a inevitable consequence of the way that anthropology, history, etc. (like any discipline) operate; any researcher must contend with limited information and a perspective that's removed from their object of study.

Other than that minor quibble, your posts continue to be awesome.
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Re: Meet the Mexica!

Post by zompist »

Ares Land wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:27 pm - Marvin Harris' work on possible, natural, environmental-related causes of human sacrifice seem to be dismissed as a matter of routine regarding Mesoamerica. It is, I believe, a little unfair. Long story short: Harris believes human sacrifice is a consequence of cannibalism,
, itself a consequence of a scarcity in animal protein. The mainstream view is to retort that it can't possibly be true: the Mexica had access to plenty of animal protein.
As it happens, he covers this in Cultural Materialism. What are the sources of protein his critics talk about? Harris says that they lacked cattle, sheep, goats, horses, pigs, guinea pigs, llamas, and alpaca (the major food animals in the Old World and South America) while the few birds and dogs they had were not great sources of meat.
- To the 'etic' and 'emic' distinction (as I understand, material factors of culture vs. culture understood on its own terms) I'd like to add a third category, when authors speculate on what the culture might have thought it was doing.
That is the emic level. Though it's a bit more complicated than my blog post could explain. E.g. there's what people say about why they don't do something, and then there's what people say when you show that you know that they do do those things sometimes. :)
circeus
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Re: Meet the Mexica!

Post by circeus »

zompist wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:57 am
Ares Land wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:27 pm- To the 'etic' and 'emic' distinction (as I understand, material factors of culture vs. culture understood on its own terms) I'd like to add a third category, when authors speculate on what the culture might have thought it was doing.
That is the emic level. Though it's a bit more complicated than my blog post could explain. E.g. there's what people say about why they don't do something, and then there's what people say when you show that you know that they do do those things sometimes. :)
As I read it, Ares is referring to not even bothering asking/looking up what the people say about their own practice, and thus most certainly not comprehending that there's an etic/emic difference in anthropological analyses to begin with. This would probably not even be considered anthropological analysis at that point, as it's pretty much just baseless assumption and prejudice (if anything, it's emically telling about the analyser's culture). So it's not so much a third category as existing outside them entirely.
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Re: Meet the Mexica!

Post by Ares Land »

Actually both amateurs and very respectable specialists came up with speculative theology. Which is, I hasten to add, entirely understandable.
Native sources are very straightforward on why they sacrificed humans: to bring rain, to keep the universe running, and so on. But it's unsatisfying. There no Nahua theologians left to explain what they did, and many of our sources are second hand accounts. So speculation is unavoidable.

It ranges from the very wacky to the quite reasonable.

On the wacky side, painter Diego Rivera saw in it a very noble way to confront mortality, and to escape decay, disease and old age. A dramatic exit, so to speak. Diego Rivera is a fairly interesting character, by the way. If he had his way, Mexico would have reinstalled sacrifices. He was Friday Kahlo's husband -- and put her through hell. A persistant rumor is that he had an hand in Trotsky's assassination.

On the more reasonable side, a comparison to communion is unavoidable. And, you know, the parallel to Christianity is so obvious sometimes it's tempting to connect sacrifice to communion. Reportedly, the Nahua took to Christianity right away though the missionaries learned quickly to skip the bit about Isaac and Abraham.
Again, it's understandable but the analogy doesn't fit all the facts. ( Plus, it's unsatisfying. I sure as hell don't understand communion, despite belonging to the culture that practices it!)

Michel Graulich, a very respectable authority, suggests sacrifices served as a proxy for accessing the nicest kinds of afterlife. It makes a lot of sense, but as far as I know, the texts don't mention anything like it.

One last kind of speculation is treating sacrifice as compensation for human faults: 'the wages of sin'. Again, the Mexica were obsessed with sin, and obsessed with sacrifice, but there's little evidence that they connected the two.

That said, hey, I'm just an amateur. I report on various arguments and say which convinced me and which didn't, but if you have to choose between my view and Graulich's or Leon Portilla's, pick theirs!
circeus
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Re: Meet the Mexica!

Post by circeus »

If we contrast these analyses with the emic/etic opposition, I don't think my assertion that they are ultimately baseless speculation (which actually comes through your post, IMO), placing them entirely outside that divide, is entirely unwarranted.
Ares Land wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:37 am( Plus, it's unsatisfying. I sure as hell don't understand communion, despite belonging to the culture that practices it!)
Personally, it's not so much the communion itself as the cannibalism implicit (borderline explicit, really) in the actual Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation.
Ares Land
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Re: Meet the Mexica!

Post by Ares Land »

Circeus wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:51 pm If we contrast these analyses with the emic/etic opposition, I don't think my assertion that they are ultimately baseless speculation (which actually comes through your post, IMO), placing them entirely outside that divide, is entirely unwarranted.
Ares Land wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:37 am( Plus, it's unsatisfying. I sure as hell don't understand communion, despite belonging to the culture that practices it!)
Personally, it's not so much the communion itself as the cannibalism implicit (borderline explicit, really) in the actual Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation.
Yeah, I mean that was probably still unclear in my mind and awkwardly phrased. Sorry about that.

(Yep, transubstantation is probably the least understandable part of it all. I'm not sure there is an actual explanation anywhere.)
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Linguoboy
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Re: Meet the Mexica!

Post by Linguoboy »

Ares Land wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:54 amFor some reason, authors tend to imagine a wild sex life for the Mexica.
This surprises me not at all. There seems to be nothing that Western men enjoy more than projecting their sexual fantasies onto "native" women. The less those women wear (for whatever practical reason), the more they seem to do this. With the Mexica, you probably also have to consider the Spicy Latina stereotype being projected backwards into prehistory. And, on top of that, I think a lot of people tend to connect a lust for sex with a lust for killing so any culture which had pyramids of skulls must have had orgies, too, right?
Travis B.
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Re: Meet the Mexica!

Post by Travis B. »

Ares Land wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:41 am
Circeus wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:51 pm If we contrast these analyses with the emic/etic opposition, I don't think my assertion that they are ultimately baseless speculation (which actually comes through your post, IMO), placing them entirely outside that divide, is entirely unwarranted.
Ares Land wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:37 am( Plus, it's unsatisfying. I sure as hell don't understand communion, despite belonging to the culture that practices it!)
Personally, it's not so much the communion itself as the cannibalism implicit (borderline explicit, really) in the actual Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation.
Yeah, I mean that was probably still unclear in my mind and awkwardly phrased. Sorry about that.

(Yep, transubstantation is probably the least understandable part of it all. I'm not sure there is an actual explanation anywhere.)
Someone had to actually argue on catholic.org that transubstantiation is not actually cannibalism even though their arguments seemed a bit thin...
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
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Re: Meet the Mexica!

Post by zompist »

Travis B. wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:22 pm Someone had to actually argue on catholic.org that transubstantiation is not actually cannibalism even though their arguments seemed a bit thin...
As opposed to the arguments that it's actually cannibalism? I mean, come on, it's not.

That page is forced to argue from an Aristotelian ideology that was hot shit 800 years ago but no one accepts as science today. It would be difficult, though, to even define transubstantiation using modern science.
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