Zompist Bboard Again

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:28 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:08 amMy initial assumption for a "Romance language quite different from Catalan" spoken in what is NW present-day Catalonia would be Aragonese...

Except it isn't. At a glance, can you tell which is which?

Té com a origen el dialecte llatí que es va formar a les valls pirinenques aragoneses durant els segles vii i viii sobre un substrat acusadament vascó. Entre els lingüistes, l'aragonès també rep, en el seu període medieval, la denominació de navarroaragonès per la inicial dependència aragonesa del Regne de Navarra.

L'aragonés naixió alredol d'o sieglo VIII como uno d'os muitos dialectos d'o latín desembolicatos en os Pireneus centrals y norte, y este d'a val d'Ebro en os actuals Riocha, sud y este de Navarra y Alto Aragón. Se considera que entre os substratos, o vasco yera muito important.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:33 am AFAIK, the case system of Classical Latin was simplified to only two in Vulgar Latin: nominative and accusative.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:49 amThe first is Catalan and the second is Aragonese.

hwhatting wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:57 pm

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:33 am AFAIK, the case system of Classical Latin was simplified to only two in Vulgar Latin: nominative and accusative.

There is also some evidence, especially from Romanian, that VL still had a genitive(-dative).

Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:32 pm Isn't Proto Romance reconstructed with at least 4 cases
?

Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:32 pm "Vulgar Latin" is a somewhat unfortunate term

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:40 am

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:35 am

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:17 pm
What does that mean exactly? Old Catalan is clearly distinct from Mozarabic even from the earliest attestations.

Oh, sure, but the earliest attestations are, IIRC, from the 11th century. I don't know how different these were in the 9th century, or if Mozarabic was ever spoken that far north.

The earliest full texts are from the 11th century; there are sporadic Old Catalan attestations going back to the 8th (mostly proper names) and they show most if not all defining characteristics of Catalan (e.g. simplilfication of -mb-, loss of -u(m), lack of diphthongisation, etc.).

Moreover, you just can't get both Mozarabic and Old Catalan from a recent common ancestor. One has /tʃ/ as the outcome of palatalised /k/ and the other has /ʦ/.

hwhatting wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:55 am It's certainly how the Roman elite at the time would have felt about it

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:10 am

hwhatting wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:55 am It's certainly how the Roman elite at the time would have felt about it

We should ban one-liners ending in emojis here.

Dē Graut Bʉr wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:37 am

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:09 amNW Catalonia (Pallars, Ribagorça) has plenty of toponyms from a Romance language quite different from Catalan, so Mozarabic was spoken in the Pyrenaic area outside the homeland of Catalan.

What evidence is there that this "Romance language quite different from Catalan" is Mozarabic?