Zompist Bboard Again

Of course it happens - c.f. e.g. Aasax maʔa 'water' and tugukél 'water'. On the other hand, we don't know that ib- is even a morpheme on its own. There's only ibai 'river', ibi 'ford' and ibar 'valley' - not sure where Talskubilos got the meaning 'river valley' from. The alleged *ib- would have meanings connected to river specifically and not water in general.

Zju wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:06 amOn the other hand, we don't know that ib- is even a morpheme on its own. There's only ibai 'river', ibi 'ford' and ibar 'valley' - not sure where Talskubilos got the meaning 'river valley' from.

Not exactly. Basque ibar means both 'valley' and 'river valley', equivalent to Spanish vega, a word of Iberian origin (baikar 'a kind of vessel') instead of a supposed Basque **ibai-ka.

Zju wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:06 amThe alleged *ib- would have meanings connected to river specifically and not water in general.

Not really, as the lexeme *ib- can be found in Aragonese ibón, Gascon iu, èu 'mountain lake'.

There's also the combinatory variant *i- in iturri 'source, spring' (cfr. Spanish chorro) and (h)idoi 'marsh'.

Like ur, zur 'wood' (also with tap rhotic) has got the combinatory variant zu-. On the other hand, several words ending in nasal have a combinatory variant with tap rhotic. Examples: oin, or- 'foot', soin, sor- 'shoulder', jaun, jaur- 'sir', egun, egur- (but also egu-) 'day'.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:53 pmBut they can develop, cf. PIE *wódr and *h₂ékʷeh₂, the latter of which may or may not, if I'm remembering right, have meant "river" originally.

That's right, but this isn't a PIE word but a femenine noun *akw-ā derivated from a variant of *Hōḱu 'fast'.

I find that explanation rather far-fetched.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:06 am

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:53 pmBut they can develop, cf. PIE *wódr and *h₂ékʷeh₂, the latter of which may or may not, if I'm remembering right, have meant "river" originally.

That's right, but this isn't a PIE word but a femenine noun *akw-ā derivated from a variant of *Hōḱu 'fast'.

The latter is widely considered to underly *h₁eḱwos 'horse', in which case it would have the wrong laryngeal to be source of the 'river' word as well - unless the latter is a loanword from a Southern IE language where *e had become *a, which may be the case given its limited distribution. Of course, that is just speculation!

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:53 pmBut they can develop, cf. PIE *wódr and *h₂ékʷeh₂, the latter of which may or may not, if I'm remembering right, have meant "river" originally. I'm pretty sure words meaning "body of water" or "container of water" can evolve to mean "water", at least.

Oops, forgot my sarcastic font. It's precisely those concepts which are most fundamental which tend to have multiple unrelated roots, at least IME. You could just call rain "sky-water" or something, but pretty much no language I know does that. (Osage has níi "water" and níižu "rain", but I'm not sure what the meaning of the second element is.)

Now things make sense.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:32 am

Zju wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:06 amOn the other hand, we don't know that ib- is even a morpheme on its own. There's only ibai 'river', ibi 'ford' and ibar 'valley' - not sure where Talskubilos got the meaning 'river valley' from.

Not exactly. Basque ibar means both 'valley' and 'river valley', equivalent to Spanish vega, a word of Iberian origin (baikar 'a kind of vessel') instead of a supposed Basque **ibai-ka.

You just furthered the argument that there's only ibai ~ bai 'fresh water body' and none of the purported **ib-.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:32 am

Zju wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:06 amThe alleged *ib- would have meanings connected to river specifically and not water in general.

Not really, as the lexeme *ib- can be found in Aragonese ibón, Gascon iu, èu 'mountain lake'.

There's also the combinatory variant *i- in iturri 'source, spring' (cfr. Spanish chorro) and (h)idoi 'marsh'.

Not exactly. We don't know that ibón comes from Basque at all. It could stem fron PIE *h₂ep-. Gascon iu, èu can be worn down forms of almost any word. No reason it couldn't be related to eau or something. You have the claim, where's the evidence?

And besides, lake is quite close in meaning to river (see: fresh water body). Still not quite the general meaning of water.

Zju wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:19 pm

Not exactly. We don't know that ibón comes from Basque at all.[/quote]Of course, not directly from Basque but a related language.

Zju wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:19 pmIt could stem fron PIE *h₂ep-.

OEH (Old European Hydronyms) roots can't belong to PIE. The thing is whether the original root was ib- or *ub- > u(h)-.

Zju wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:19 pmGascon iu, èu can be worn down forms of almost any word. No reason it couldn't be related to eau or something. You have the claim, where's the evidence?

As regarding Gascon, I refer you to Gerhard Rolhfs' book Le Gascon. Études de Philologie Pyrénéenne

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:30 am

Zju wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:19 pm Not exactly. We don't know that ibón comes from Basque at all.

Of course, not directly from Basque but a related language.

I don't think so. How do we know that it comes from a related language? Do we?

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:30 am

Zju wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:19 pmIt could stem fron PIE *h₂ep-.

OEH (Old European Hydronyms) roots can't belong to PIE. The thing is whether the original root was ib- or *ub- > u(h)-.

Not really. It hasn't been established that Old European Hydronyms come from one or a couple of closely related languages, let alone that some or most of them weren't from IE languages.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:30 am

Zju wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:19 pmGascon iu, èu can be worn down forms of almost any word. No reason it couldn't be related to eau or something. You have the claim, where's the evidence?

As regarding Gascon, I refer you to Gerhard Rolhfs' book Le Gascon. Études de Philologie Pyrénéenne

Care to cite the relevant section for those of us who don't have the book?

Zju wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:40 pm

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:30 am

Zju wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:19 pmGascon iu, èu can be worn down forms of almost any word. No reason it couldn't be related to eau or something. You have the claim, where's the evidence?

As regarding Gascon, I refer you to Gerhard Rolhfs' book Le Gascon. Études de Philologie Pyrénéenne

Care to cite the relevant section for those of us who don't have the book?

74. Gasc. ioû (Palay, C4), éoû (Palay), héou ou huou (Lespy, Dict.), uoû (D 1 E 2), uong (E 4), boum (H 1 6) 'lace de montagne', Barousse boum 'affreux précipice surplomnat un gouffe d'eau' (Soulé-Venture), arag. (a,1, 2, 7) ibón (f, h) libón 'lac de montagne', Navarra ibón (AFA, VIII, 40) 'source'. En Gascogne le mot est sur le point de disparaître. Il n'est plus connu que par les viellards. Mais il est encore assez fréquent dans la toponimie de la haute montagne. Dans la haute Vallée d'Aure, l'ancient nom de ces lacs était éoû. [...] Les fomes citées demandent por base un *ibone, à rapprocher du basque ibai 'rivière', ibar 'vallée' (Azkue); en Pays Basque il n'y a de véritable lac.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:08 pm

Zju wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:40 pm

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:30 am As regarding Gascon, I refer you to Gerhard Rolhfs' book Le Gascon. Études de Philologie Pyrénéenne

Care to cite the relevant section for those of us who don't have the book?

74. Gasc. ioû (Palay, C4), éoû (Palay), héou ou huou (Lespy, Dict.), uoû (D 1 E 2), uong (E 4), boum (H 1 6) 'lace de montagne', Barousse boum 'affreux précipice surplomnat un gouffe d'eau' (Soulé-Venture), arag. (a,1, 2, 7) ibón (f, h) libón 'lac de montagne', Navarra ibón (AFA, VIII, 40) 'source'. En Gascogne le mot est sur le point de disparaître. Il n'est plus connu que par les viellards. Mais il est encore assez fréquent dans la toponimie de la haute montagne. Dans la haute Vallé d'Aure, l'ancient nom de ces lacs était éoû. [...] Les fomes citées demandent por base un *ibone, à rapprocher du basque ibai 'rivière', ibar 'vallée' (Azkue); en Pays Basque il n'y a de véritable lac.

Und nimmst du an, dass wir Französisch können?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:14 pmUnd nimmst du an, dass wir Französisch können?

Ich bin sicher, Sie können es verstehen.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:08 pm

Zju wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:40 pm

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:30 am As regarding Gascon, I refer you to Gerhard Rolhfs' book Le Gascon. Études de Philologie Pyrénéenne

Care to cite the relevant section for those of us who don't have the book?

74. Gasc. ioû (Palay, C4), éoû (Palay), héou ou huou (Lespy, Dict.), uoû (D 1 E 2), uong (E 4), boum (H 1 6) 'lace de montagne', Barousse boum 'affreux précipice surplomnat un gouffe d'eau' (Soulé-Venture), arag. (a,1, 2, 7) ibón (f, h) libón 'lac de montagne', Navarra ibón (AFA, VIII, 40) 'source'. En Gascogne le mot est sur le point de disparaître. Il n'est plus connu que par les viellards. Mais il est encore assez fréquent dans la toponimie de la haute montagne. Dans la haute Vallé d'Aure, l'ancient nom de ces lacs était éoû. [...] Les fomes citées demandent por base un *ibone, à rapprocher du basque ibai 'rivière', ibar 'vallée' (Azkue); en Pays Basque il n'y a de véritable lac.

So the unattested protoform *ibone of Gascon iu, èu only approaches the ibai family of words, got it. No connection established with certainty, not even the direction of purported borrowing (Gascon to Basque is just as likely), and yet again we have just ibai / ibar. They could as well have come from iba-i / iba-r or even ibai / ibai-r(V). Still no evidence for an alleged **ib- protoform.

74. Gasc[on]. ioû₁ (Palay, C4), éoû₂ (Palay), héou ou huou₃ (Lespy, Dict.), uoû (D 1 E 2), uong (E 4), boum (H 1 6) 'lace de montagne'₄, Barousse boum 'affreux précipice surplomnat un gouffe d'eau' (Soulé-Venture), arag. (a,1, 2, 7) ibón (f, h) libón 'lac de montagne', Navarra ibón (AFA, VIII, 40) 'source'. En Gascogne le mot est sur le point de disparaître. Il n'est plus connu que par les viellards.₅ Mais il est encore assez fréquent dans la toponimie de la haute montagne.₆ Dans la haute Vallé d'Aure, l'ancient nom de ces lacs était éoû.₇ [...] Les fomes citées demandent por base un *ibone, à rapprocher du basque ibai 'rivière', ibar 'vallée' (Azkue); en Pays Basque il n'y a de véritable lac.₈.

Note 1: I assume approximately [juː] or [ijuː].
Note 2: I assume approximately [e.juː].
Note 3: I assume approximately [ɥuː], though I find this rather strange-feeling to articulate.
Note 4: I assume a typographical error, and should be lac de montaigne "mountain-lake".
Note 5: "In Gascony, the word is on the verge of disappearing. It is no longer understood, except by the very old."
Note 6: "But it is still frequent enough in topographic names in high mountain regions."
Note 7: "In the High Valley of Aure, the former (or "archaic") name of these lakes is éou" (I assume from the orthography, roughly [e.juː], as above.)
Note 8: The forms cited [here] require an etymon(?) of *ibone (not sure how it's meant to be read, but probably *[i.bɔn], given everything else is spelled out in French orthography), compare with Basque ibai "river", ibar "valley" (Azkue); in the Basque Country, there are no true lakes.

Zju wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:44 pmSo the unattested protoform *ibone [...] Still no evidence for an alleged **ib- protoform.

Nothing of the kind. The prototype *ib-one (with a Romance diminutive suffix) is the source of Aragonese ibón and the Gascon forms with final nasal.

Zju wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:44 pm of Gascon iu, èu only approaches the ibai family of words, got it. No connection established with certainty, not even the direction of purported borrowing (Gascon to Basque is just as likely),

It's a substrate loanword in Gascon, but modern Basque can't be the source.

Zju wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:44 pmand yet again we have just ibai / ibar. They could as well have come from iba-i / iba-r or even ibai / ibai-r(V).

Not really, because -ai/-ar can be also found in the toponym Bizkaia < *bizk-ai and bizkar 'back; hill' < *bizk-ar.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:55 pm

Zju wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:44 pmSo the unattested protoform *ibone [...] Still no evidence for an alleged **ib- protoform.

Nothing of the kind. The prototype *ib-one (with a Romance diminutive suffix) is the source of Aragonese ibón and the Gascon forms with final nasal.

Zju wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:44 pm of Gascon iu, èu only approaches the ibai family of words, got it. No connection established with certainty, not even the direction of purported borrowing (Gascon to Basque is just as likely),

It's a substrate loanword in Gascon, but modern Basque can't be the source.

How do we know the former? Do we? I'm not convinced. As for the latter, yes, some ancient Romance or Celtic vernacular could as well be the source of *ibai- family of words. We just don't know.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:55 pm

Zju wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:44 pmand yet again we have just ibai / ibar. They could as well have come from iba-i / iba-r or even ibai / ibai-r(V).

Not really, because -ai/-ar can be also found in the toponym Bizkaia < *bizk-ai and bizkar 'back; hill' < *bizk-ar.

Bizk- forms etymology that you mention could be true or false, but that doesn't prove or disprove the existance of alleged **ib- forms. A root can end in what is a suffix in stems of other words. And besides, another point still stands. It hasn't been established that Old European Hydronyms come from one or a couple of closely related languages, let alone that some or most of them weren't from IE languages.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:28 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:14 pmUnd nimmst du an, dass wir Französisch können?

Ich bin sicher, Sie können es verstehen.

Das einzige Französisch, das ich weiß, ist "je ne parle pas français" und "je parle anglais".

Zju wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:07 pmAs for the latter, yes, some ancient Romance or Celtic vernacular could as well be the source of *ibai- family of words.

Nope.

Hmm, actually, aquae > *egwai > *ibai is not at ALL far-fetched.