Zompist Bboard Again

The metathesis explanation is totally implausible. If it was metathesis of /kli/, then why didn't it produce /nukilɚ/ "noo-kee-ler"? Likely with reduction of /i/ to /ɪ/ or /ə/ "noo-kih-ler", "noo-ka-ler". One could say the /j/ in /nukjəlɚ/ is from the metathesized /i/, but why would it have been desyllabified in favor of a random schwa that appeared out of nowhere?

Moreover, why on earth would an English speaker metathesize the perfectly common English sequence /kli/ to /kil/??

The only possible explanation is analogy with the many other words (especially scientific-ish words) ending in /jəlɚ/ (especially /kjəlɚ/), like ocular, macular, spectacular, jocular, vernacular, etc., as mentioned by mae.

mae wrote: ↑Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:17 pm Why doesn't /nukliəs/ become /nukjuləs/?

Well... it does!

Indeed, when I was at school I think most of us had nuke-u-lus, even though we had nuke-lier (nuke-u-ler sounds quite American).

I'm sure the influence of other words in -cular and -culus is a factor (and, of course, 'nucular' is actually a word, and in some sense 'ought' to be the pronounciation, etymologically speaking - we're just inheriting the 'mispronounciations' of Romans); -clear doesn't have anywhere near as many parallels*. But we should also point out that several other shibboleths also involve metathesis of syllable-initial /l/ before two unstressed vowels (jewellery (/dZul@ri/ > /dZu@lri/, with for some speakers further simplification to /dZulri/) and cutlery (/kVutl@ri/ > /kVt@lri/) spring to mind). I think the oddities of syllabicity regarding /l/ may be at play here as well.

The process also works the other way around: I've certainly heard spectacular and I think vernacular with final -/li@/ instead of -/j@l@/.



*in fact, discarding** compounds (including anything with the -er morpheme), I can only find three words in its set: nuclear, cochlear/cochlea, and trochlea/trochear. Can't seem to find any parallels with /t/, /d/, /p/, /b/ or /g/, either, though I haven't searched for every possible spelling.

Salmoneus wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:57 amBut we should also point out that several other shibboleths also involve metathesis of syllable-initial /l/ before two unstressed vowels (jewellery (/dZul@ri/ > /dZu@lri/, with for some speakers further simplification to /dZulri/)

Wrong way around - the historic, standard pronunciation is /dʒuəlri/, while /dʒuləri/is the stigmatized pronunciation.

/dʒulri/ could be the result of the monosyllabic pronunciation of jewel - /dʒul/ + /ri/, or the disyllabic pronunciation /dʒu.əl/ + /ri/ giving /dʒuəlri/ followed by the deletion of the unstressed schwa, or the result of schwa deletion from the stigmatized /dʒuləri/.

Citation needed.

The elliptical form may be higher-status today, but it descends from the longer form (which remains the more productive suffix in general). I think you'd find it hard to prove that the shorter, book-learnèd form had ever actually extinguished the longer, popular form.

[another example: burglary, a mispronunciation so common that we even get the basic verb from it]

Although I'll admit that the -ery/-ry ambivalence adds a wrinkle to those examples that I hadn't originally considered.

Salmoneus wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:00 amThe elliptical form may be higher-status today, but it descends from the longer form

Although it's difficult to interpret without pronunciation information, the Etymonline entry seems to point to an origin that had indeed the /dʒuəlri/ pronunciation (or /dʒuəlriə/ or whatever -rye is supposed to be pronounced).


JAL

I wonder how do you pronounce my profile name. I pronounce it: [xʷtɛ̀k]

Xwtek wrote: ↑Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:41 am I wonder how do you pronounce my profile name. I pronounce it: [xʷtɛ̀k]

Exactly as I clicked on the thread to check your comment, I wondered if it was supposed to be something like [xɯ.tek].

Xwtek wrote: ↑Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:41 am I wonder how do you pronounce my profile name. I pronounce it: [xʷtɛ̀k]

I pronounce it [hwəˈtʰɜʔk] or if I am trying hard [xwəˈtʰɜʔk].

[ksw.tek]


JAL

Rojava

Not having heard it pronounced before, I guessed [roˈʒɑvɑ].

Thats a tough one. My first hunch is that it looks like a name from India, but most people seem to pronounce <v> as /v/ so I would too even though in my mind I'd be thinking of it as /ro'dʒa.wa/. Somewhat less likely, it could be a Spanish name, and then Id be totally off, but once I'd learned that I'd go with my American High School Spanish accent and say /ro'ha.bə/. That is, Spanish readings for the letters but normalized to English phonotactics.


btw, anyone here say Wikipedia with an /i/ in the first syllable? I used to, but corrected myself to using /ɪ/ around 2008 since I couldnt find anyone else saying it my way. My dad is the only one I know who says it with /i/.

My anglicization is [ʁʷoˈhaːvə(ː)].

Xwtek wrote: ↑Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:41 am I wonder how do you pronounce my profile name. I pronounce it: [xʷtɛ̀k]

[ɑˈkɑŋka]

ask
literally (my daughter gets this one down to two syllables)

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:48 am Rojava

/ˌrəwˈdʒɑvə/, although the actual pronunciation is apparently /roʒɑˈvɑ/

imo proper nouns should in the absence of well-known rules be pronounced however will maximize recognition

Rojava tips off my Spanish-dar even though I should know better: mentally, I can't help but think [ɹoʊ'hɑvə].

Xwtek wrote: ↑Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:41 amI wonder how do you pronounce my profile name. I pronounce it: [xʷtɛ̀k]

[xuˈtek] ([x] is a soft velar fricative, as in Russian or Mexican Spanish, while [e] just has its Spanish value, surely higher than your [ɛ]).

dhok wrote: ↑Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:59 pm Rojava tips off my Spanish-dar even though I should know better: mentally, I can't help but think [ɹoʊ'hɑvə].

So I'm not the only one whose Spanish-dar is triggered by this word...

Interesting how this provides evidence for the hypothesis I read 20 years ago (and wish I could find again) that the default foreign language for English-speakers is shifting from French to Spanish.

(Another recent data point is a server's attempt to correct my pronunciation of mujaddara, a Middle Eastern lentil dish, to /mu:həˈdɑrə/.)

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:39 am Interesting how this provides evidence for the hypothesis I read 20 years ago (and wish I could find again) that the default foreign language for English-speakers is shifting from French to Spanish.

(Another recent data point is a server's attempt to correct my pronunciation of mujaddara, a Middle Eastern lentil dish, to /mu:həˈdɑrə/.)

This may not have spread everywhere: I vividly recall going to a Mexican restaurant in a rural area of southern Virginia as a tween and overhearing somebody ordering [fə'dʒiɾəs]. But that was over a decade ago.