Zompist Bboard Again

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:02 pm The issue is what his party has become under his leadership as far as attitudes towards Jews are concerned. And the answer, judging from what kind of stuff his followers can say or write about Jews without this hurting their standing in the party or the movement in any way, is "nothing good".

It's not clear to me that his party has gotten worse under his leadership (although this may well just be ignorance on my part) but to say Corbyn is at least partially responsible he would at the least have to have been passively encouraging by not doing enough to stamp it out, which is certainly objectionable and deserving of strong criticism but not quite enough to call him personally an anti-semite on its own.

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:02 pm At the moment, it doesn't make much sense to use "left-wing" and "anti-zionist" as synonyms when talking about Jews.

Sure, that's why I said 'left-wing or anti-zionist'.

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:02 pm The Jewish organizations defending him are usually organizations that were specifically set up to defend him, so it's not particularly relevant that they defend him. As for, "people of authority", can you name some? Sal mentioned a research center supposedly founded by the "World Jewish Council", but there is no organization or institution called the "World Jewish Council".

I had skimmed the article from chris_notts, which isn't as strong as it appeared on first glance - but Noam Chomsky is certainly a person of authority defending Corbyn. The article also mentions a few journalists who probably don't count as persons of authority, although it does also mentions two reports by Labour (from 2019) and the Commons home affairs committee (from 2017), which conclude that Labour doesn't seem to have more of a problem with anti-semitism than any other party (although that's a low bar and you've already said you're holding Labour to a higher standard). If we're playing the 'show me your sources' card, then what are the organisations set up specifically to defend him?

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:02 pmThe people I think of when I think of the term "anti-imperialist" are perfectly happy with deriding any and all criticism of dictators who are politically at odds with the West as imperialist propaganda, and any and all opposition movements and figures in countries ruled by dictators who are politically at odds with the West as agents of imperialism.

Strawmen sure are easy to beat in an argument.

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:02 pm Sorry, I hadn't noticed that particular post by Sal yet, probably because it came directly after another post by Sal. Ok, if his account is accurate, that would be that. But as for the rest of that particular post - wow. Just wow. So Sal thinks that when members of groups facing bigotry feel hurt and anguish about the bigotry they're facing, the appropriate response is to mock them and make sarcastic remarks about their hurt and anguish. Sal is such a class act.

Sal's argumentation style is hardly anything new - but I read that passage in the particular context of the people using anti-semitism simply as a smear against Corbyn, in which case cries of 'hurt and anguish' would be crocodiles tears designed to counter any defense of Corbyn's, and that hurt and anguish alone is probably not enough to demonstrate anti-semitism.

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:58 am Getting back to Brexit, May has asked the EU for a delay until June the 30th.

With no vote from parliament, right? Isn't this at odds with basically her entire party and/or government?

Nerulent wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:56 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:02 pmThe people I think of when I think of the term "anti-imperialist" are perfectly happy with deriding any and all criticism of dictators who are politically at odds with the West as imperialist propaganda, and any and all opposition movements and figures in countries ruled by dictators who are politically at odds with the West as agents of imperialism.

Strawmen sure are easy to beat in an argument.

If you think my description of the "anti-imperialist" position is a collection of strawmen, I'd recommend you check out the stuff people in that camp routinely write and say.

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:58 am Getting back to Brexit, May has asked the EU for a delay until June the 30th.

With no vote from parliament, right? Isn't this at odds with basically her entire party and/or government?

There was a vote authorizing her to ask for an extension last Thursday. Apparently the only major Brexit-related motion that passed.

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:03 pm If you think my description of the "anti-imperialist" position is a collection of strawmen, I'd recommend you check out the stuff people in that camp routinely write and say.

I don't doubt those people exist, I do doubt that (outside of Stalin or Mao apologists) it's widespread amongst and/or characteristic of those who describe themselves as anti-imperialist. And it is certainly a strawman argument against Corbyn.

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:03 pm There was a vote authorizing her to ask for an extension last Thursday. Apparently the only major Brexit-related motion that passed.

Ah okay, I missed that bit of news.

Nerulent wrote:And it is certainly a strawman argument against Corbyn.

Given his support of Hamas, Venezuela and Hezbollah I'd say it isn't.

mèþru wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:10 pm Given his support of Hamas, Venezuela and Hezbollah I'd say it isn't.

At least with Venezuela, being against an undemocratic US-backed coup attempt is hardly the same as supporting a murderous dictator.

It's a constitutional coup that is way too competent and democratically to have been US orchestrated. And Maduro may not be a particularly bloodthirsty dictator, but he still is one.

mèþru wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:46 pm It's a constitutional coup that is way too competent and democratically to have been US orchestrated. And Maduro may not be a particularly bloodthirsty dictator, but he still is one.

Hey now, you make it sound like the American intelligence services can't be subtle!

Oh, they can be, just not when it comes to coups.

I don't know whether Iran 1953 counts as "subtle", but it was apparently fairly complex.

(As for Venezuela today, there don't seem to be any good options, since pretty much everyone in Venezuelan politics seems to be very horrible. But perhaps that could be debated in the "Elections in various countries" thread?)

So now Ms May's gone and attacked parliament for keeping us in Brexit deadlock due to being unable to decide what they want. Never mind that they've only been given one deal to vote on, and it's not a deal anyone really wants...

Halian wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:05 pm

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:40 pm <snip> If it's a choice between giving the UK more time (with promises of new elections, new negotiations, or something else concrete) and letting the civilian population of Britain go without food and medicine, it's pretty open-and-shut, isn't it?

Is it bad that I don't put it past Europe to let the UK starve?

It will be a short sharp shock to punish those who'd had 'enough of experts'. The big question is who will enforce a hard border from Northern Ireland to the Republic. The remit of the EU border agency is limited to Schengen states, which precludes its operation in the Republic.

There have been plenty of "Short Sharp Shocks" already. What we haven't had is the "Big Black Block." The people who believe that Brexit is a very good idea have been able to wiggle out of accepting the fantastical nature of their notion every time something goes wrong. Can't get rid of the backstop because of diplomatic realities? Can't have closed borders AND cheap trade? Can't avoid EU regulations on your manufactures even after you've surrendered any chance of helping to draft them? All the fault of those damned Eurocrats, of course! It will be that way forever. If Old Blighty sinks into the fucking ocean because Teresa May drilled a big hole in it, it will be Brussels' fault.

Latest on Brexit: in the middle of the night, the EU has agreed to move the Brexit date to May 22nd if the British Parliament agrees to the Deal, and April 12th if it doesn't.

Hooray! This should give more time to set up contingency planning in the UK for no deal, but I doubt parliament is competent enough for it.

The big question is who will enforce a hard border from Northern Ireland to the Republic. The remit of the EU border agency is limited to Schengen states, which precludes its operation in the Republic.

Not a big question - RoI immigration and customs will have to build the border. That is a clear requirement of EU law or the single market for goods and common external tariff will not function. But this is the inherent contradiction in the EU position - never mind the fact that the British government has no position of any rational meaningful sort - they need a deal with a backstop or they throw the Irish under a bus and force them to set up a border and finish the peace process. If they can't get a deal with a backstop, no deal is not an option without either a) throwing the Irish under a bus and forcing them to set up a border or b) throwing the single market under a bus by instituting customs and regulatory checks between the RoI and rest of the single market. Macron might talk no-deal and they might whine that it's all too complicated to sort the Euro Parliament elections out but in the end any extension the British ask for must be given or either a) or b) is true.

This will not end well - no brexit ends badly with calls of betrayal; the deal ends with calls of betrayal; no deal ends with chaos in UK, the Irish under a bus and calls of betrayal. Still it ends with either a general election, referendum or both.

mèþru wrote: ↑Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:25 am Hooray! This should give more time to set up contingency planning in the UK for no deal, but I doubt parliament is competent enough for it.

Yeah, given their track record so far, I wouldn't bet on it! But hope springs eternal.

evmdbm wrote: ↑Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:18 am

The big question is who will enforce a hard border from Northern Ireland to the Republic.

Not a big question - RoI immigration and customs will have to build the border.

But will they?

Talking of borders, up until we joined the EEC, Irish Immigration policy had to support ours or else the UK government would easily halt
the free movement of Irish citizens to the UK - all it took until 1973 was an instruction to immigration officers to inspect Irish citizens. The UK is now throwing that threat away by treating Irish citizenship as a visa granting indefinite leave to enter - I saw no provision to suspend this by statutory instrument.

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:26 am Latest on Brexit: in the middle of the night, the EU has agreed to move the Brexit date to May 22nd if the British Parliament agrees to the Deal, and April 12th if it doesn't.

Does this relate to the timetable for the elections? It takes time to print the ballot forms for the election on 23 May, and there's also the process of nominating independents(?) and parties for the elections. Additionally, childcare will have to be arranged where the schools close on election day, though arguably that's not the EU's problem. I can just imagine an appeal for a further extension if the deal has not been accepted.

But will they?

Well they could say, "Bollocks to EU law" I suppose...

I can just imagine an appeal for a further extension if the deal has not been accepted.

Oh there'll be another extension alright....

evmdbm wrote: ↑Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:47 am

I can just imagine an appeal for a further extension if the deal has not been accepted.

Oh there'll be another extension alright....

(obvious off-colour metaphor left unstated)