Zompist Bboard Again

At the same time, I'm torn between using ⟨j⟩ for /j/ or using ⟨j⟩ for /dzʷ dz dʑ/; I like the former, but the latter provides a good parallel with using ⟨c⟩ for /tsʷʰ tsʰ tɕʰ/ and ⟨c'⟩ for /tsʷʼ tsʼ tɕʼ/.

I never understood using anything other than "ts dz" for such sequences as [ts dz] unless they were predictable allophones of something else, or in a Roman orthography using a form of historical spelling ("c" for [ts]-like sounds bothers me the most, both because I'm used to the letter having conditional pronunciation, and because I find it an unnecessary complication when "ts" is more-or-less unambiguous). I also think the "j" for [j] might be helpful if you want to use "y" as a vowel.

I reverted to using ⟨j⟩ for /j/, ⟨dz⟩ for /dzʷ dz dʑ/, ⟨ts⟩ for /tsʷʰ tsʰ tɕʰ/, and ⟨ts'⟩ for /tsʷʼ tsʼ tɕʼ/; I also replaced ⟨ï⟩ for [ɨ] with ⟨y⟩ because I think it looks better.

I approve of these changes.

Literary (koine) /ɛlaʃ s̺͇uɾajekɛʃ/

/p~m t̪~n̪ t̺͇~n̺͇ tʃ~ɲ k~ŋ/
/f s̪ s̺͇ ʃ x h/
/w j/
/ɾ l/

/i a e ɛ o u/ + nasal, /ɛ/ is much more common than /e/

(s̪)(C)(s̪,j,w)V(j,w)(C), but open syllables preferred

Plosives and nasals are in a complimentary distribution: nasals are only found before nasal vowels, plosives are only found before oral vowels and in the coda. Northern dialect has merged nasal vowels into regular ones and has nasals and plosives as separate phoneme series. Liquids are only found intervocalically. Plosives and /x/ become voiced intervocalically, unlike the rest of fricatives. /s̺͇/ is apical alveolar, and has merges with /ʃ/ in the Desert and Equatorial dialects and with /s̪/ in the Southern dialect. /t̪/ in the Southern dialect is frequently pronounced as [t̪s̪~t̪s̪ʲ], especially before hiɡh front vowels. Ilosean dialect notoriously tends to not make any distinction between dentals and alveolars at all, though most speakers there make an effort to use the literary pronunciation in anything but the most colloquial settings.

Hooray, another post here! My attempt:

Literary (koine) /ɛlaʃ s̺͇uɾajekɛʃ/ ⟨Elash Surayékesh⟩

/p~m t̪~n̪ t̺͇~n̺͇ tʃ~ɲ k~ŋ/ ⟨p~m th~nh t~n c~j k~g⟩
/f s̪ s̺͇ ʃ x h/ ⟨f ss s sh x j⟩
/w j/ ⟨w y⟩
/ɾ l/ ⟨r l⟩

/i a e ɛ o u/ ⟨i a é e o u⟩, with oral and nasal vowels transcribed the same way

(A sample text would be nice too!)

Literary (koine) /ɛlaʃ s̺͇uɾajekɛʃ/:

/p~m t̪~n̪ t̺͇~n̺͇ tʃ~ɲ k~ŋ/ < p ṭ t ç k >
/f s̪ s̺͇ ʃ x h/ < f s ṣ ş ḥ h >
/w j/ < w y >
/ɾ l/ < r l >

/i ĩ u ũ/ < i ĩ u ũ >
/e ẽ ɛ ɛ̃ o õ/ < ẹ ẹ̃ e ẽ o õ >
/a ã/ < a ã >

/ɛlaʃ s̺͇uɾajekɛʃ/ ⟨élac surayégec⟩

/p~m t̪~n̪ t̺͇~n̺͇ tʃ~ɲ k~ŋ/ ⟨b dz d j g⟩
/f s̪ s̺͇ ʃ x h/ ⟨f sz s c x h⟩
/w j/ ⟨w y⟩
/ɾ l/ ⟨r l⟩

/i a e ɛ o u/ ⟨i a é e o u⟩
/ĩ ã ẽ ɛ̃ õ ũ/ ⟨in an én en on un⟩

Aa Bb Cc Dd Ee Éé Ff Gg Hh Ii Jj Ll Nn Oo Rr Ss Uu Ww Xx Yy Zz

I feel like voiced plosives are probably the best way to represent [p~b~m] etc. as a single grapheme.

And another 'lang, this time based on my native Russian, but after 2000 years in space. And some Polish. So Cyrillisation would also work, if you're feeling like it.

/iloski izɤk/

/p b t d ts dz tʃ dʒ k ɡ/
/m n ɲ/
/f s z ʃ ʒ x/
/l ʎ r/
/ʋ j/

/æ ø ʏ i e ɑ o u ɤ/, with /ɤ/ beinɡ historically derived from both /i/ an /e/ after non-palatalised consonants. No vowel harmony to speak of, but a few instances of complementary distribution - only back vowels after /ts/ /dz/ and alveolar sonorants and only front vowels after palatal sonorants.

Syllable structure is (C)(C)V(C)(C), with consonant clusters having generally simplified from those of Russian. The palatalisation on consonants became a back-front distinction on vowels after all the palatalised coda consonants except liquids depalatalised. /l/ and /n/ kept their "soft" forms as separate palatal phonemes, while "soft" /r/ depalatalised everywere in onset (before palatalisation became vowel quality, so no front vowels after /r/) and became /j/ in coda.

/ɑnɑʒdɤ, krɤdʒæʎes sejrnɤ ʋedir i sondzɤ ɑ tom, ktorɤ bojʃɤ sijnɤ. ʋedir sɡɑʋrɤʋ: "smɑrɤ, tɑm jist stɑrɤk o plɑʃi. je ssiʎʏ jiʋo sɲæt sʋɑj kɑstʏm."/

Knit Tie wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:45 am Literary (koine) /ɛlaʃ s̺͇uɾajekɛʃ/

/p~m t̪~n̪ t̺͇~n̺͇ tʃ~ɲ k~ŋ/
/f s̪ s̺͇ ʃ x h/
/w j/
/ɾ l/

/i a e ɛ o u/ + nasal, /ɛ/ is much more common than /e/

(s̪)(C)(s̪,j,w)V(j,w)(C), but open syllables preferred

Also, sample text for this one, with a nonstandard gloss showing what modern English morphemes everything correlates to and originates from. Note that when several adverbs in a row (which also function as adjectives with the verb "to be") have the same subject and verb, the subject and the verb are put only onto the last adverb. Subject and/or object marks are also often omitted when the subject and/or object can be inferred from context (i.e. the wind said, and beyond him there's only the sun there that is marked as an animate entity).

/s̪a̰jɛt̺͇iʃɛr t̺͇ejɛt, t̪awɛ̰hi awxuwt̺͇ɛs̪hiʃ e t̪as̪a̰hi t̪ejas̺͇kuwɛr laʃɛs̺͇ awhuwɛt̺͇iʃ fawɛs̺͇ɛt̺͇. T̪awɛ̰ s̪ejɛr: "jɛlɛk, t̪ehas̺͇ ps̪ejo inexawas̺͇ɛt̺͇hiʃ emḛhi. kɛrajɛt̺͇aps̪o̰his̺͇ɛpuwiw."/

Some-it-is-ed day-it, the-wind-he of-coldness-he-is and the-sun-he they-argue-ed large-er of-who-it-is power-it. The-wind say-ed: "you-look, there frail in-a-cover-it-he-is a-man-he. Good-I-it-from-he-remove-will.
̺͇
Nasalisation marked under vowels because my ipa keyboard won't for some reason display diacritics above letters.

Knit Tie wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:50 am /s̪a̰jɛt̺͇iʃɛr t̺͇ejɛt, t̪awɛ̰hi awxuwt̺͇ɛs̪hiʃ e t̪as̪a̰hi t̪ejas̺͇kuwɛr laʃɛs̺͇ awhuwɛt̺͇iʃ fawɛs̺͇ɛt̺͇. T̪awɛ̰ s̪ejɛr: "jɛlɛk, t̪ehas̺͇ ps̪ejo inexawas̺͇ɛt̺͇hiʃ emḛhi. kɛrajɛt̺͇aps̪o̰his̺͇ɛpuwiw."/

Sayetisher téyet, thawehi awxuwtesshish e thassahi théyasskuwer lashes awhuwetish faweset. Iawe sséyer: “Yelek, théjas psséyo inéjawasetjish emeji. Kerayetapssohisepuwiw.”

Knit Tie wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:53 am /iloski izɤk/

/iloski izɤk/ Iloski izëk

/p b t d ts dz tʃ dʒ k ɡ/ ⟨p b t d c dz č dž k g⟩
/m n ɲ/ ⟨m n ň⟩
/f s z ʃ ʒ x/ ⟨f s z š ž h⟩
/l ʎ r/ ⟨l ľ r⟩
/ʋ j/ ⟨v j⟩

/æ ø ʏ i e ɑ o u ɤ/ ⟨ȧ ȯ u̇ i ė a o u e⟩

/ɑnɑʒdɤ, krɤdʒæʎes sejrnɤ ʋedir i sondzɤ ɑ tom, ktorɤ bojʃɤ sijnɤ. ʋedir sɡɑʋrɤʋ: "smɑrɤ, tɑm jist stɑrɤk o plɑʃi. je ssiʎʏ jiʋo sɲæt sʋɑj kɑstʏm."/

Anažde, kredžȧľes sėjrne vėdir i sondze a tom, ktore bojše sijne. Vėdir sgavrev: “Smare, tam jist starek o plaši. Je ssiľu̇ jivo sňȧt svaj kastu̇m.”

Knit Tie wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:53 am /iloski izɤk/

/iloski izɤk/ Iloski Izëk

/p b t d ts dz tʃ dʒ k ɡ/ p b t d ts dz ch j k g
/m n ɲ/ m n nh
/f s z ʃ ʒ x/ f s z sh zh kh
/l ʎ r/ l lh r
/ʋ j/ w y

/æ ø ʏ i e ɑ o u ɤ/: ä ö ü i e a o u ë:

/ɑnɑʒdɤ, krɤdʒæʎes sejrnɤ ʋedir i sondzɤ ɑ tom, ktorɤ bojʃɤ sijnɤ. ʋedir sɡɑʋrɤʋ: "smɑrɤ, tɑm jist stɑrɤk o plɑʃi. je ssiʎʏ jiʋo sɲæt sʋɑj kɑstʏm."/
Anazhdë, krëjäles seyrnë wedir i sondzë a tom, ktorë boyshë siynë, wedir sgawrëw: "Smarë, tam yist starëk o plashi. Ye s silhü snät sway kastüm."

An experiment:

IPA wrote:La bi z-e lä sɔ lɛi sä dis pə tɛ, sha kɛ̃ a sə rɔ̃ ki lɛ tɛ lä plə fɔɣ. Kɑ̃-til-zɔ̃ və ɛ̃ vwɑ ya jɔ̈ ki s-a vɑ̃ sɛ, ɑ̃v lo pe dɑ̃ sɔ̃ mɑ̃ to, i sɔ̃ tɔ̃ be d-a kɔɣ kä sä ləi ki a ɣi vɣe lä pɣä mye a lä ləi fɛ ɣ-o te, sä ɣä ɣä gaɣ de kɔm lä plə fɔɣ. A lɔɣ la biz s-ɛ mi-za suf le dä tut se fɔɣs, mɛ plə el suf lɛ plə lä vwɑ ya jɔ̈ɣ se ɣe sɔ̃ mɑ̃ to o tuɣ dä ləi. Fi nal mɑ̃, ɛl ɣä nõ s-a lä ləi fɛ ɣ-o te. A lɔɣ lä sɔ lɛi kɔ mɑ̃ sa bɣi ye, e o bu d-ɛ̃ mɔ mɑ̃ lä vwɑ ya jɔ̈ ɣe sho fe o ta sɔ̃ mɑ̃ to. Ɛ̃ si la biz də ɣä kɔ nɛt kä lä sɔ lɛi ɛ tɛ lä plə fɔɣ.

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:16 am An experiment:

IPA wrote:La bi z-e lä sɔ lɛi sä dis pə tɛ, sha kɛ̃ a sə rɔ̃ ki lɛ tɛ lä plə fɔɣ. Kɑ̃-til-zɔ̃ və ɛ̃ vwɑ ya jɔ̈ ki s-a vɑ̃ sɛ, ɑ̃v lo pe dɑ̃ sɔ̃ mɑ̃ to, i sɔ̃ tɔ̃ be d-a kɔɣ kä sä ləi ki a ɣi vɣe lä pɣä mye a lä ləi fɛ ɣ-o te, sä ɣä ɣä gaɣ de kɔm lä plə fɔɣ. A lɔɣ la biz s-ɛ mi-za suf le dä tut se fɔɣs, mɛ plə el suf lɛ plə lä vwɑ ya jɔ̈ɣ se ɣe sɔ̃ mɑ̃ to o tuɣ dä ləi. Fi nal mɑ̃, ɛl ɣä nõ s-a lä ləi fɛ ɣ-o te. A lɔɣ lä sɔ lɛi kɔ mɑ̃ sa bɣi ye, e o bu d-ɛ̃ mɔ mɑ̃ lä vwɑ ya jɔ̈ ɣe sho fe o ta sɔ̃ mɑ̃ to. Ɛ̃ si la biz də ɣä kɔ nɛt kä lä sɔ lɛi ɛ tɛ lä plə fɔɣ.

Some sort of descendant of French?

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:17 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:16 am An experiment:

IPA wrote:La bi z-e lä sɔ lɛi sä dis pə tɛ, sha kɛ̃ a sə rɔ̃ ki lɛ tɛ lä plə fɔɣ. Kɑ̃-til-zɔ̃ və ɛ̃ vwɑ ya jɔ̈ ki s-a vɑ̃ sɛ, ɑ̃v lo pe dɑ̃ sɔ̃ mɑ̃ to, i sɔ̃ tɔ̃ be d-a kɔɣ kä sä ləi ki a ɣi vɣe lä pɣä mye a lä ləi fɛ ɣ-o te, sä ɣä ɣä gaɣ de kɔm lä plə fɔɣ. A lɔɣ la biz s-ɛ mi-za suf le dä tut se fɔɣs, mɛ plə el suf lɛ plə lä vwɑ ya jɔ̈ɣ se ɣe sɔ̃ mɑ̃ to o tuɣ dä ləi. Fi nal mɑ̃, ɛl ɣä nõ s-a lä ləi fɛ ɣ-o te. A lɔɣ lä sɔ lɛi kɔ mɑ̃ sa bɣi ye, e o bu d-ɛ̃ mɔ mɑ̃ lä vwɑ ya jɔ̈ ɣe sho fe o ta sɔ̃ mɑ̃ to. Ɛ̃ si la biz də ɣä kɔ nɛt kä lä sɔ lɛi ɛ tɛ lä plə fɔɣ.

Some sort of descendant of French?

No, this is French itself. The source is from the Illustrations of the IPA. The transcription is some unholy hybrid of North African and Vietnamese, to emphasise that French is in fact mostly open syllables.

The use of schwa for what I would expect to be [y], and [ɣ] for the rhotic, really threw me off.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 9:05 pm The use of schwa for what I would expect to be [y], and [ɣ] for the rhotic, really threw me off.

Amharic uses ⟨ä ə⟩ for /ə ɨ/, and I believe the Chadic convention (influenced by French orthography!) is the same; it’s only a minor change from that to ⟨ä ə⟩ /ə y/. As for the rhotic, well, ⟨ɣ⟩ /ʁ/ strikes me as being a lot more faithful to the standard pronunciation than ⟨r⟩ /ʁ/.

i do think it's confusing to use characters created specifically for the ipa to represent their non-ipa values. but your point about it being mostly open syllables has me wondering about the feasibility of developing a syllabary for french

Emily wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:29 am i do think it's confusing to use characters created specifically for the ipa to represent their non-ipa values.

Since when were ⟨ä ə ɣ⟩ created for the IPA? (The last one’s Greek!)

but your point about it being mostly open syllables has me wondering about the feasibility of developing a syllabary for french

Probably quite feasible, though there are enough closed syllables to cause problems. Geʼez script would be a good starting point.

/pʰ tʰ tsʰ cʰ kʰ/ <p t c ky k>
/ⁿb ⁿd ⁿdz ⁿɟ ⁿg/ <mb nd nz nj ngg>
/ɓ ɗ ʄ ɠ/ <b d j g>
/m̥ n̥ ɲ̥ ŋ̥/ <hm hn hny hng>
/m n ɲ ŋ/ <m n ny~n ng>
/s ɹ h/ <s r h>
/ɸ ɬ ç/ <f lh sh~s>
/β l j/ <w l y>
/a ɔ e ɤ o i ɯ u ai̯ au̯/ <a o e u ow iy i uw ay aw>
The coda palatals are written <s n> after <i>, and <is in> after <u>. I would much rather write /ɤ/ as <o>, but that's only possible in Gejaehl, not in Bor, which didn't merge the two equally frequent low vowels.

/kʰɤ n̥ɯç tʰau̯ kʰlɯɲ ɗɤ ⁿdɤɲ saʔtʰepʰ m̥apʰβa || ɹɔɬjɔh li n̥ɯç m̥akʰβeɬeɹi ⁿdɤɲ cʰɯɗɹa || çβi ɤpʰuɹiⁿdɯ ɤŋimɔ ai̯ tʰun̥a tʰɹu n̥βiɗe ɤⁿbjɔljɔ/
Ku hnis taw klin du nduin sa'tep hmapwa. Rolhyoh liy hnis hmakwelheriy nduin kyidra. Shwiy upuwriyndi ungiymo ay tuwhna truw hnwiyde umbyolyo.

or why not go full burmese: /a ɔ e ɤ o i ɯ u ai̯ au̯/ <a aw e o ow i u uw ai au>

Ko hnuis taw kluin do nduin sa'tep hmapwa. Rawlhyawh li hnuis hmakwelheri ndoin kyudra. Shwi opuwrindu ongimaw ai tuwhna truw hnwide ombyawlyaw.

---

/p t k q~ʡ/ <p t k q>
/b~β~ɸ~ɓ d~l~ɗ/ <b d>
/s (ʂ) χ~ħ/ <s (r/rh) h>
/z~j ɻ ʁ~ʕ/ <y r g>
/m n ŋ/ <m n ng>

/i ɯ u e o æ ɔ ɑ/ <i ui u e o ai aw a>
/əi əu əɯ iə uə ɯə/ <ei eu ae ie oa ue>
/é ê è ě/ <:e .e "e 'e>

The non-phonemic schwa is unwritten. [w j Vˁ] are written as <b y Vg>.
Tone is marked before the final syllable, accounting for epenthetic schwas. /nʕ/ clusters are disambiguated with the corresponding word tone mark. If there'd be two tone marks flanking a consonant, the non-disambiguating one is omitted.

[tʰəmkəˤkɔ́ˤ zdəpá lkəmjæ̂w | lʡʊ́j nʕɔˤβæ̀ ndəzô mjɑ̀ˤ zó
mɑˤjò zdæɸséj stɑˤkʰə̥ɗɔ̂ˤ | n ziŋbɑ̀ zdæ̌ məstʰpǔ ħtɑβó
nʕɪ̀j ŋpʂəkó ɻɑ̂β ħnəŋmɑ́ ŋjæ̌ | məˤtʰħɪˤlɔ́ ʡʰħɑ̂ ʡʰmjɑ̌ ʡəndæ̌
ɔ́ məskɑ̌ mʡɑ̌w sħəkʰtʰɓɯ̂ mé | tʰkʰətʰɗəˤmælɔ̀w mħɔpɑ̂ lkǽ]

Tmkg:kawg yd:pa dk.myaib, :dquy nqog"bai nd.yo "myag :zo
Mag"yo Ydaib:sey stagk.daug, n ying"ba 'ydai m'stpu hta:bo,
n:giy ngpr:ko .rab hnng:ma 'ngyai, mgthig:dau .qha 'qmya q'ndai
:au m'ska 'mqab sh.ktbui "me, tktdgmai"daub mhau.pa :dkai

---

And finally, Mhra as that one cursed respelling of Danish:

/p t ʈ k q/ <b d ḍ g ġ>
/pp tt ʈʈ kk qq/ <p t ṭ k ḳ>
/m n ɳ ɲ ŋ/ <m n ṇ nj ñ>
[ɸ] /θ s ʂ/ <f z s ṣ>
/w r l j/ <v r l j>

[i i: ɪ u u:] <i ii e u uu>
[e e: ə~ɨ ɨ: o o:] <æ ææ w~ë ww o oo>
[æ æ: a a:] <ä ää a aa>

/aˀ/ <aq>

/à(:) ǎ: á(:) â:/ <’a(a) ’a(’)a a(a) a’a>, high tone presumed to be default and thus isn't written, because stress is predictable, as short stressed schwa is written <ë>. Low tone indicated word-initially. All other tones indicated between the two stressed vowels. Syllabic nasals are written without unstressed schwa.
Geminates are written as single consonants intervocalically, but double word-initially, since aspirated stops, which only occur word-initially, are written with the characters for voiceless stops.

Ṇba kkuuñ ’ñwnæateñ fṣäirdn mæo ’ñzañsed. Kkuuñ ñwṇäir kwdaañ kkuñ tmæ’a ’szwñkṣæand. Jwnmu’u.
’Ḍgapmwne ṇamrñ ñman ’mgeand. ’Ḍgabe vman ṇamrñ ’and, Mardnmwn.
’Fwñur ḳwñlwgmaond.