Zompist Bboard Again

Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 2:38 pm Yeah, ain't it sweet?
I blame Charles de Gaulle for this.
(a very interesting bit of french history thanks i enjoyed reading it)

man, I wonder if pinochet's anti-politician dealio was informed by degaulle's ideas. i take it degaulle was like super famous amongst enthusiasts of military matters, no?

You need 500 elected officials

wait wait... what? la patrie de voltaire, the OG anti-absolute monarchy dudderinos, you have this rule? anyway, have you gotten *close calls* to electing random fascists? like, I don't mean how sometimes the entirety of the right-wing of an otherwise perfectly liberal democracy sometimes get scared and support fascists, like it happens everywhere all the time, but I mean a non-ruling-class sponsored just random fash? (which, honestly, are the dangerous ones I think).

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:52 pm If you answered no to any of the above, Group X is apolitical.

according to this litmus test, the army is apolitical, as are journalists, judges, influencers, the police, the homeless, drug dealers and meme page admins. these all seem like political groups to me.

Torco wrote: ↑Wed Dec 22, 2021 8:13 pm

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:52 pm If you answered no to any of the above, Group X is apolitical.

according to this litmus test, the army is apolitical, as are journalists, judges, influencers, the police, the homeless, drug dealers and meme page admins. these all seem like political groups to me.

Maybe in Chile; I don't know one way or another. However, in the US most of these groups are highly apolitical. I do not mean apolitical to mean "not active in politics." People within these groups may vote at above average rates. They may even vote the same way as one another, hang giant banners across their houses, shout on television about their favorite candidate, and organize voter registration campaigns among their ranks. But these are voting blocs. Political actors are not the same as voting blocs. It is inevitable that there will be voting blocs, even in the most functional democracy imaginable. The danger comes when these groups act on the machinery of government as something other than lumps of voters. The army, for example, does not pick our leaders, even though the military vote in some states can absolutely swing an election and politicians pander to them constantly. The same is true of farmers, teachers, and all the people on your list (except for judges, which are absolutely a load-bearing part of our electoral system these days).

To reiterate, people that a politician needs to vote for them, or convince other to vote for them, are one thing. People that a poliitician needs to allow them to become leaders are entirely another thing. If enough of your government employees move from the first category to the second, your democracy is doomed. But people in the first category can be very loud and organized without being a threat to democracy.

EDIT: BTW, congrats on your recent election results.

Torco wrote: ↑Wed Dec 22, 2021 8:13 pm
man, I wonder if pinochet's anti-politician dealio was informed by degaulle's ideas. i take it degaulle was like super famous amongst enthusiasts of military matters, no?

No idea! I do know de Gaulle was popular in South America; there was even a particular connection with Chile. (He was a personal friend of Eduardo Frei, I believe)

In some ways de Gaulle was very different from Pinochet: he opposed American imperalism pretty strongly (that's why he was popular in Latin America, I believe), generally in favor of interventionist policies and a planned economy, and I think more of a democrat at heart. (I know Pinochet put a fair bit of odd authoritarian provisions in the Chilean constitution, which isn't something that really happened here.)
Of course there are similarities too. Both men admired Franco, for instance.

You need 500 elected officials
wait wait... what? la patrie de voltaire, the OG anti-absolute monarchy dudderinos, you have this rule?

Yep. Actually, de Gaulle didn't feel it was necessary. But everyone in his entourage was afraid the people would elect Lord Buckethead or something.

anyway, have you gotten *close calls* to electing random fascists? like, I don't mean how sometimes the entirety of the right-wing of an otherwise perfectly liberal democracy sometimes get scared and support fascists, like it happens everywhere all the time, but I mean a non-ruling-class sponsored just random fash? (which, honestly, are the dangerous ones I think).

Jean-Marie Le Pen and his Front National got very popular, starting in the 80s. He was 'random' in the sense that he never got serious support from the establishment (a few nudges here and there, though, as the major parties used him for political backstabbing.) His electorate was generally non-ruling class. He made it to the second round of the presidential election in 2002.
His daughter Marine Le Pen and the Rassemblement National (same difference!) made it to the second round in 2017 -- a more serious threat this one; her score was a lot better.
Again, her electorate is largely working or middle-class and she isn't supported by the establishment much.

The main fascist may still be Eric Zemmour, who has some more upper class support.

My own take on this is that as long as the business classes prefer more traditional conservative types to fascists, we're not in any real danger.

Moose I agree that they're all political groups, but the test would yield that they're not, is what I was pointing out. And yeah, thank you, it was a really close call.

My own take on this is that as long as the business classes prefer more traditional conservative types to fascists, we're not in any real danger.

Yeah, tbh same here. then again, we haven't hit any big depressions lately, just eternal low-level economic stagflation masked by some prosperous sectors, and the vast growth of finance. Was degaulle anti-imperialist? I really should read something on the man.

Well, there is at least one member of the business class who seems to be for Zemmour: Vincent Bolloré, at the head of Canal Plus, one of the most watched tv channels, and Cnews, one of the most watched news channels. Vincent Bolloré once sued for diffamation because a magazine said there were children under the age of 14 working in deplorable conditions on the fields he owns in Africa. The judge said it wasn't diffamation because it's true. That's only one of the times he tried to sue for true information about him. Another times he has been told his use of the procedure was abusive. So that's the judges doing their job there.
Thankfully, Vincent Bolloré is retiring this year. Hopefully his children who inherit will be more reasonable.

MacAnDàil wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:02 am Well, there is at least one member of the business class who seems to be for Zemmour: Vincent Bolloré

Oh, that guy. Makes sense when your business model is being friends with African despots, you want an authoritarian leader in your home country as well...

He's kind of our Rupert Murdoch -- cartoonishly evil.

Oh and Jean Lassalle's positions are generally ruralist, which makes him one of the of the few with that focus.

By the way, one of the things which has disappointed me in Mélenchon since the last presidential election was the time he mocked a journalist's accent.

The irony of it is that Mélenchon's own accent is quite noticeable. (I really can't place it myself but I was told it's pied-noir, ie. people born in North Africa in colonial time.)

Lassalle has taken positions I'm sympathetic with -- I'm generally on board with ruralism, but I find his erratic behavior... concerning.
(He's hard to understand in a way that has little to do with his native accent; I was told it's probably due to heavy medication.)

Our PM has just been spotted washing someone’s hair in a salon. Clearly the Australian election campaign season is in full swing.

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 12:21 am Our PM has just been spotted washing someone’s hair in a salon. Clearly the Australian election campaign season is in full swing.

It always seems like Australian politicians don't know they live in Australia. They're like "Maybe if I'm nauwyce to people they'll vout for me." And everyone else is like "There's someone trying to mike something of himself! Throw rocks at his hade!"

Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:24 am Zemmour is said to have a solid chance of making it to the second round. Myself, I don't think he will, though for a pretty sick reason: Zemmour is Jewish, and we have quite a few antisemites around.

But if that is stopping Zemmour, what are the chances of a South American black woman with better ideas i.e. Christiane Taubira?

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 7:03 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 12:21 am Our PM has just been spotted washing someone’s hair in a salon. Clearly the Australian election campaign season is in full swing.

It always seems like Australian politicians don't know they live in Australia. They're like "Maybe if I'm nauwyce to people they'll vout for me." And everyone else is like "There's someone trying to mike something of himself! Throw rocks at his hade!"

Um, I’m not quite sure what that accent is supposed to be. Welsh Cockney, perhaps. It’s obviously mutually unintelligible with actual English, for one thing.

And, well, it’s one thing to be nice, but… washing the hair of a complete stranger you’ve only just met? That’s just plain weird.

(I should add that the more usual photo op here is politicians kissing babies, or so I hear. Thank God, in this time of COVID we are spared these horrors.)

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 7:45 am (I should add that the more usual photo op here is politicians kissing babies, or so I hear. Thank God, in this time of COVID we are spared these horrors.)

I never really understood why politicians go in for that. The babies are usually quite unhappy about being held or kissed by complete strangers, and signal that, so for the media and creators of would-be-viral content it's mainly an opportunity to get photos or videos of politicians in the presence of visibly or audibly unhappy babies.

MacAnDàil wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 7:13 am

Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:24 am Zemmour is said to have a solid chance of making it to the second round. Myself, I don't think he will, though for a pretty sick reason: Zemmour is Jewish, and we have quite a few antisemites around.

But if that is stopping Zemmour, what are the chances of a South American black woman with better ideas i.e. Christiane Taubira?

One problem is Zemmour is that he's aiming at the far-right electorate, which is where the antisemites are.
They aren't likely to vote for a black woman, either, but in any case they wouldn't vote for a left-wing candidate.

Taubira (who is now, officially, a candidate) seems to be getting an incredible smear campaign on the left anyway. Her cardinal sin is, it seems, that she's sort of a moderate actually.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 8:31 am

MacAnDàil wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 7:13 am

Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:24 am Zemmour is said to have a solid chance of making it to the second round. Myself, I don't think he will, though for a pretty sick reason: Zemmour is Jewish, and we have quite a few antisemites around.

But if that is stopping Zemmour, what are the chances of a South American black woman with better ideas i.e. Christiane Taubira?

One problem is Zemmour is that he's aiming at the far-right electorate, which is where the antisemites are.
They aren't likely to vote for a black woman, either, but in any case they wouldn't vote for a left-wing candidate.

That's a good point.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 8:31 am Taubira (who is now, officially, a candidate) seems to be getting an incredible smear campaign on the left anyway. Her cardinal sin is, it seems, that she's sort of a moderate actually.

It seems a large part of the criticism is not actually about her, but about the primary that she joined to legitimse her campaign.

Specifically, the primary she joined only had very minor candidates, as well as three major candidates who were already declared (Yannick Jadot, Jean-Luc Mélenchon and Anne Hidalgo) who wanted their names removed. But there was no other primary for Christiane Taubira to join anyway. I'm half-expecting Anne Hidalgo to throw in the towel any day now. She might have the support of 2000+ elected officials, but she's averaging about 2.5 in the polls at the moment. Benoît Hamon's run in 2017 was already a historic low for the Socialist Party in France, but that would take the biscuit. She would be better off throwing in the towel and not waste her time. She might even be able to get a ministry if she gets behind a winning ticket for Christiane Taubira.

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 12:21 am Our PM has just been spotted washing someone’s hair in a salon. Clearly the Australian election campaign season is in full swing.

I notice that there hasn't been an announcement of dissolution or prorogation prior to dissolution, but, then again, the House of Representatives last time was dissolved in April. Do you think Morrison'll wait as long as possible to advise a dissolution, given how his party isn't doing so well in the polls?

doctor shark wrote: ↑Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:01 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 12:21 am Our PM has just been spotted washing someone’s hair in a salon. Clearly the Australian election campaign season is in full swing.

I notice that there hasn't been an announcement of dissolution or prorogation prior to dissolution, but, then again, the House of Representatives last time was dissolved in April. Do you think Morrison'll wait as long as possible to advise a dissolution, given how his party isn't doing so well in the polls?

Well, you seem to be more informed than me about Australian politics, so I shan’t comment. What I will say, based on my limited understanding, is that the election is still a good two or three months away, so I don’t think there’s any need for such actions at this early time.

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:40 am

doctor shark wrote: ↑Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:01 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 12:21 am Our PM has just been spotted washing someone’s hair in a salon. Clearly the Australian election campaign season is in full swing.

I notice that there hasn't been an announcement of dissolution or prorogation prior to dissolution, but, then again, the House of Representatives last time was dissolved in April. Do you think Morrison'll wait as long as possible to advise a dissolution, given how his party isn't doing so well in the polls?

Well, you seem to be more informed than me about Australian politics, so I shan’t comment. What I will say, based on my limited understanding, is that the election is still a good two or three months away, so I don’t think there’s any need for such actions at this early time.

Hey, anything's more interesting than the typical [redacted] of politics in my home country, plus Australian politics are fascinating with the constant leadership spills. I was just curious because, here in the luscious and moist Nether Regions, they announced the election date quite early (I think in November 2020 we heard about an election due in March), though that may also be a function of the semi-fixed term of the House of Representatives/Tweede Kamer. (Elections are due every fourth year in March unless the House is earlier dissolved.)

Though a few other countries here in Europe could be quite interesting. Since my former boss is a Swede, I hear bits and pieces about Swedish politics, and their election is due in September... and where it gets especially interesting is that some parties look to have broken the cordon sanitaire around the far-right Sweden Democrats (though we're a fine one to talk here, given how the PVV, one of the two main "special" parties, had a confidence and supply agreement with the Rutte I cabinet!).