Zompist Bboard Again

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 4:14 am"Pronunciations you had to unlearn"? I'm still not entirely over pronouncing the "p" in the English word "psychology". I don't get to actually speak English all that often, but when I read English texts containing the word and kind of "hear them in my head", I still "hear" a trace of a "p" there.

I have the same with "pterosaur". I refuse to not pronounce the "p".


JAL

Does anyone else automatically assume that orthographic "a", "e", and "i" are "short", even in open syllables, in Latinate or Greek loans in English of three or more syllables that they have only read and not heard?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:42 amDoes anyone else automatically assume that orthographic "a", "e", and "i" are "short", even in open syllables, in Latinate or Greek loans in English of three or more syllables that they have only read and not heard?

Yeah, I've done this for a long time. For instance, before I starting taking linguistics classes, I always thought velar rhymed with stellar and not stealer.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 12:16 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:42 amDoes anyone else automatically assume that orthographic "a", "e", and "i" are "short", even in open syllables, in Latinate or Greek loans in English of three or more syllables that they have only read and not heard?

Yeah, I've done this for a long time. For instance, before I starting taking linguistics classes, I always thought velar rhymed with stellar and not stealer.

I long thought the same exact thing myself.

I did the opposite, for a long time thinking locative and vocative must've had pronunciations similar to locate, location and vocation.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 2:27 pm I did the opposite, for a long time thinking locative and vocative must've had pronunciations similar to locate, location and vocation.

I have always been ambivalent about orthographic "o", which I may or may not realize as LOT or as GOAT (but orthographic "or" is always NORTH/FORCE for me) in Latinate or Greek loans.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 5:14 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 2:27 pm I did the opposite, for a long time thinking locative and vocative must've had pronunciations similar to locate, location and vocation.

I have always been ambivalent about orthographic "o", which I may or may not realize as LOT or as GOAT (but orthographic "or" is always NORTH/FORCE for me) in Latinate or Greek loans.

I can't think of an example where this isn't true for me; all of my prerhotic "o" that are LOT/PALM are in native words (sorry, sorrow, borrow and so on, and then they're always polysyllables; as opposed story, storey, clerestory, the ending -atory, all of which have the NORTH/FORCE vowel. For me, NORTH/FORCE patterns nearly as a prerhotic allophone of GOAT (though before a terminal /r/, I don't think any variety of present-day English distinguishes between any of LOT, GOAT, or NORTH/FORCE).

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 6:02 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 5:14 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 2:27 pm I did the opposite, for a long time thinking locative and vocative must've had pronunciations similar to locate, location and vocation.

I have always been ambivalent about orthographic "o", which I may or may not realize as LOT or as GOAT (but orthographic "or" is always NORTH/FORCE for me) in Latinate or Greek loans.

I can't think of an example where this isn't true for me; all of my prerhotic "o" that are LOT/PALM are in native words (sorry, sorrow, borrow and so on, and then they're always polysyllables; as opposed story, storey, clerestory, the ending -atory, all of which have the NORTH/FORCE vowel. For me, NORTH/FORCE patterns nearly as a prerhotic allophone of GOAT (though before a terminal /r/, I don't think any variety of present-day English distinguishes between any of LOT, GOAT, or NORTH/FORCE).

I have LOT/PALM in sorrow, borrow, tomorrow, etc. but I have NORTH/FORCE for sorry.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 6:02 pmI don't think any variety of present-day English distinguishes between any of LOT, GOAT, or NORTH/FORCE).

...what?

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:30 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 6:02 pmI don't think any variety of present-day English distinguishes between any of LOT, GOAT, or NORTH/FORCE).

...what?

It only sounds ridiculous if you chop off half the sentence.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Sep 02, 2022 12:38 am

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:30 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 6:02 pmI don't think any variety of present-day English distinguishes between any of LOT, GOAT, or NORTH/FORCE).

...what?

It only sounds ridiculous if you chop off half the sentence.

But seriously, what present-day English variety doesn't distinguish between at least two of LOT, GOAT, and NORTH/FORCE? (The only ones that I'd suspect of not distinguishing between all three are the likes of non-rhotic Eastern New England dialects which are cot-caught merged, and hence presumably merge LOT with NORTH/FORCE (don't call me on that).)

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Sep 02, 2022 11:22 am

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Sep 02, 2022 12:38 am

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:30 pm

...what?

It only sounds ridiculous if you chop off half the sentence.

But seriously, what present-day English variety doesn't distinguish between at least two of LOT, GOAT, and NORTH/FORCE? (The only ones that I'd suspect of not distinguishing between all three are the likes of non-rhotic Eastern New England dialects which are cot-caught merged, and hence presumably merge LOT with NORTH/FORCE (don't call me on that).)

The chopped off part of the sentence included "before a terminal /r/". In terms of lexical sets, LOT and GOAT don't appear before terminal /r/, as in that position historic short O became NORTH and historic long O became FORCE. So yes there is no contrast there.

IIRC Traditional Eastern New England non-rhotic accents have NORTH and THOUGHT both merged with LOT while FORCE remains separate, but there's been a tendency to transfer NORTH words to FORCE (and non-rhoticity is recessive there anyway).

I thought the "before a terminal r" part referred to a previous point; the sentence does make more sense now that I've re-read it. However, I think it's very trecherous ground looking at non-rhotic vowels as the "non-rhotic versions" of the same vowel qualities that appear in rhotic vowels. The /o/ or GOAT and the /o/ in North may be phonetically identical, but one of them is only a segment of a larger phoneme, and the two behave differently. So the notion that "no English variety distinguishes between LOT, GOAT, and NORTH as the non-rhotic versions of rhotic vowels" is still pretty non-sensical. Besides, some American speakers probably have the same phonetic vowel in START and LOT, so it's not even true in the narrowest sense.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sun Sep 04, 2022 2:02 am I thought the "before a terminal r" part referred to a previous point; the sentence does make more sense now that I've re-read it. However, I think it's very trecherous ground looking at non-rhotic vowels as the "non-rhotic versions" of the same vowel qualities that appear in rhotic vowels.

Well, all right, I suppose. I don't know that anybody seriously suggested that. My initial remark was that north/force functions for me somewhat like a prerhotic allophone of goat. I do not have non-diphthongal [ɔ] in other contexts, and I do not have [oʊ~ɔʊ] before /r/.

The /o/ or GOAT and the /o/ in North may be phonetically identical, but one of them is only a segment of a larger phoneme, and the two behave differently. So the notion that "no English variety distinguishes between LOT, GOAT, and NORTH as the non-rhotic versions of rhotic vowels" is still pretty non-sensical.

Okay...? I've gone back and reread what I typed, fearing I misspoke, but no, you continue to either misread, misinterpret, or misrepresent, and I'm not terribly sure I know which. I never said goat, thought, and lot were non-rhotic variants of north/force, but rather a near opposite — that my north/force patterned as a prerhotic allophone of goat.

Besides, some American speakers probably have the same phonetic vowel in START and LOT, so it's not even true in the narrowest sense.

Yes starry and sorry rhyme when I say them. I have both the cot-caught and father-bother mergers, so the only mid to low back rounded vowels left to me are GOAT and NORTH/FORCE, which occur in mutually-exclusive environments. That lot is spelled with the same letter as north is a historically-conditioned convention. If I insert /r/ into "lot", it sounds like "lart", not "lort".

The dialect here has a marginal distinction between what I can only call /ar/ and /ɑr/, because the normal pronunciation of START and LOT/PALM before /r/ is [ɑʁˤ] (except in words where LOT followed by /r/ has merged with NORTH/FORCE as [ɔʁˤ] such as sorry, Florida, etc.) but already and all right may be pronounced with [aʁˤ], in free variation with [ɒʁˤ] and [ɔʁˤ], due to the influence of the elided historical /l/ in these words.

So do others have the "lot" vowel in Florida? For me, the "Flor-" patterns with the Latinate element in "floral, florid(ity), floriography, inflorescence" et. al.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:18 pm So do others have the "lot" vowel in Florida? For me, the "Flor-" patterns with the Latinate element in "floral, florid(ity), floriography, inflorescence" et. al.

LOT in Florida is characteristic of traditional East Coast dialects in the US.

Can someone else maybe explain to me what the perforated Christ Rounin is trying to say?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Sep 04, 2022 5:25 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:18 pm So do others have the "lot" vowel in Florida? For me, the "Flor-" patterns with the Latinate element in "floral, florid(ity), floriography, inflorescence" et. al.

LOT in Florida is characteristic of traditional East Coast dialects in the US.

I suppose I have heard it in some older people, now that you mention it. I was more wondering if anybody else here had it.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sun Sep 04, 2022 5:40 pm Can someone else maybe explain to me what the perforated Christ Rounin is trying to say?

What don't you understand?

Also, Rounin is a descriptor, Ryuuji is the actual name.