Zompist Bboard Again

the rapid spread of the Injection-Molded Plastic Culture

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:28 pm

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:23 am1. Sardinia has its name from the š3rdn, one of the "Sea Peoples" of Egyptian chronicles, settling in Sardinia.

It looks like an IE-satem output of *k´erdh- 'herd' (cfr. Sanskrit śárdha- 'host, troop'). In fact, Basque has the isolated word sarda 'school fish' (Biscayan), in addition to more "metabolized" ones which I won't quote now.

These are, on the one hand, (t)alde and saldo 'flock, group' and on the other, (t)eli id.

EDITED: The lateral in (t)eli would be the reflex of a former retroflex. Interestingly, some Romance varieties (mainly in Sardinia and Sicily but also in the Cantabrian-Pyrenaic mountains) have developped retroflex consonants from Latin ll.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:28 pm

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:23 am1. Sardinia has its name from the š3rdn, one of the "Sea Peoples" of Egyptian chronicles, settling in Sardinia.

It looks like an IE-satem output of *k´erdh- 'herd' (cfr. Sanskrit śárdha- 'host, troop'). In fact, Basque has the isolated word sarda 'school fish' (Biscayan)

So, is Basque the origin of the English sardine, or is Basque sarda a loan from sardine and its kin?

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:30 pm

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:28 pm

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:23 am1. Sardinia has its name from the š3rdn, one of the "Sea Peoples" of Egyptian chronicles, settling in Sardinia.

It looks like an IE-satem output of *k´erdh- 'herd' (cfr. Sanskrit śárdha- 'host, troop'). In fact, Basque has the isolated word sarda 'school fish' (Biscayan)

So, is Basque the origin of the English sardine, or is Basque sarda a loan from sardine and its kin?

Considering that English sardine comes from Ancient Greek σαρδίνη (sardínē) via French and Latin it is unlikely that Basque is the source of English sardine, and while it is suggested that it is related to the name of the island Sardinia, that has been dismissed based on the distance of Sardinia from Ancient Greece, especially since the name is documented as having been used in Aristotle's time, when Sardinia would not have seemed close to Greece.

If anything, I would suspect Biscayan sarda to be a loan from Latin sardina; note that Basque has many Latinate loans.

Sardines are, in fact, the mythical Sea People.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:13 pm Sardines are, in fact, the mythical Sea People.

How would schools of little fish devastate the Late Bronze Age Near East?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:16 pm

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:13 pm Sardines are, in fact, the mythical Sea People.

How would schools of little fish devastate the Late Bronze Age Near East?

You think you could do better?

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:18 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:16 pm

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:13 pm Sardines are, in fact, the mythical Sea People.

How would schools of little fish devastate the Late Bronze Age Near East?

You think you could do better?

Maybe with a bronze sword and helmet and thousands of compatriots in ships, yes.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:16 pm

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:13 pm Sardines are, in fact, the mythical Sea People.

How would schools of little fish devastate the Late Bronze Age Near East?

1. food poisoning
2. choking hazard
3. B-movie monsters
4. fishing rights arguments lead them all to the edge of war...

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:35 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:16 pm

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:13 pm Sardines are, in fact, the mythical Sea People.

How would schools of little fish devastate the Late Bronze Age Near East?

1. food poisoning
2. choking hazard
3. B-movie monsters
4. fishing rights arguments lead them all to the edge of war...

Obviously, vanquishing schools of sardines doesn't make for impressive victory proclamations, so that implies that the "Sea Peoples" are actually a fiction thought up by Egyptian propagandists to provide a more impressive foe to have claimed to have defeated...

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:41 pm

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:35 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:16 pm
How would schools of little fish devastate the Late Bronze Age Near East?

1. food poisoning
2. choking hazard
3. B-movie monsters
4. fishing rights arguments lead them all to the edge of war...

Obviously, vanquishing schools of sardines doesn't make for impressive victory proclamations, so that implies that the "Sea Peoples" are actually a fiction thought up by Egyptian propagandists to provide a more impressive foe to have claimed to have defeated...

*nods* also, who wants to say "i lost my empire to a thumb-sized fish"? at least my kingdom for a horse makes a measure of sense to the people of that day and age.


hm..."Need to think of something suitably grand, worthy of a godking's overcoming them - but who led them?...oi, you, random inscriber."
"Yes?"
"Think fast!, I need the name of a suitably obscure tribe to blame this on."
"Habiru?"
"Bless you."

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:04 pmIf anything, I would suspect Biscayan sarda to be a loan from Latin sardina;

I don't think so.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:04 pmIf anything, I would suspect Biscayan sarda to be a loan from Latin sardina;

Latin also has sarda 'a kind of fish', so Biscayan sarda being a loan sounds quite likely.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 5:44 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:04 pmIf anything, I would suspect Biscayan sarda to be a loan from Latin sardina;

I don't think so.

Then give some evidence rather than your perennial "I don't think so". And note that in Latin sarda means "European pilchard", the same species referred to by sardina, and it would be safe to presume that the two words are linked.

Edit: Turns out Latin sarda is uncertain as to what kind of fish it refers to after all but it is related to Latin sardīna.

Guys, guys, I have made a discovery. The Peleset, one of the Sea Peoples from Ramases Year 8, are obviously pilchard! Think about it... done? Good, I knew you would agree.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:48 am[Then give some evidence rather than your perennial "I don't think so". And note that in Latin sarda means "European pilchard", the same species referred to by sardina, and it would be safe to presume that the two words are linked.

Edit: Turns out Latin sarda is uncertain as to what kind of fish it refers to after all but it is related to Latin sardīna.

Basque (Biscayan) sarda doesn't refer to any kind of fish but a fish school, so I include in the 'flock, group' family of words, which I presume derive from IE *ḱerdh-.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 3:48 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:48 am[Then give some evidence rather than your perennial "I don't think so". And note that in Latin sarda means "European pilchard", the same species referred to by sardina, and it would be safe to presume that the two words are linked.

Edit: Turns out Latin sarda is uncertain as to what kind of fish it refers to after all but it is related to Latin sardīna.

Basque (Biscayan) sarda doesn't refer to any kind of fish but a fish school, so I include in the 'flock, group' family of words, which I presume derive from IE *ḱerdh-.

You need actual evidence, especially considering that a small shift in meaning from an identical word referring to fish in Latin that could have easily been borrowed is far more plausible.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 5:02 pmYou need actual evidence, especially considering that a small shift in meaning from an identical word referring to fish in Latin that could have easily been borrowed is far more plausible.

Letting aside this isolated Basque word, how about the others I mentioned?

"A worthy rebuttal, Doctor. But have you considered looking over there?"

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 3:48 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:48 am[Then give some evidence rather than your perennial "I don't think so". And note that in Latin sarda means "European pilchard", the same species referred to by sardina, and it would be safe to presume that the two words are linked.

Edit: Turns out Latin sarda is uncertain as to what kind of fish it refers to after all but it is related to Latin sardīna.

Basque (Biscayan) sarda doesn't refer to any kind of fish but a fish school, so I include in the 'flock, group' family of words, which I presume derive from IE *ḱerdh-.

given how hard it is to find a lone sardine, I'm utterly not surprised it became a mass noun {my underlining the above}

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:00 amGuys, guys, I have made a discovery. The Peleset, one of the Sea Peoples from Ramases Year 8, are obviously pilchard! Think about it... done? Good, I knew you would agree.

...and from there, a short step (hop?) to the family name of a captain of the Enterprise.