Zompist Bboard Again

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:07 amIt's not exactly an innovation, but I have the feeling "nice" has come full circle. In my day, it was most often used sarcastically, to the point where I stopped using it to express approval. But now I'm seeing it used more often at face value (e.g. twice by younger friends only yesterday).

Yeah, I usually know it as being used sincerely.

On the other hand, I don't know if "fun" (at least, its adjectival usage) has gone through the opposite change; I pretty much only use "fun" sarcastically.

eg. "My dog died yesterday, so I had to work overtime, and couldn't sleep until late."
"Yeesh, sounds fun. "

Another one of my newbie questions: what exactly is stress in pronunciation, physically? That is, what exactly do our mouths and throats do differently when we pronounce stressed syllables compared to when we pronounce the same syllables without stress?

Do you know what pronoun to use in organization. For example NASA, or UN? He, She, It, or They?

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2019 5:05 amAnother one of my newbie questions: what exactly is stress in pronunciation, physically? That is, what exactly do our mouths and throats do differently when we pronounce stressed syllables compared to when we pronounce the same syllables without stress?

Depends on the language. In English, stress is a combination of length, loudness, and pitch. It's one reason why we really struggle with long vowels in unstressed position, tending to either displace the stress or reduce the vowels.

I assume you read this and it didn't quite answer your question:

Wikipedia wrote:There are various ways in which stress manifests itself in the speech stream, and these depend to some extent on which language is being spoken. Stressed syllables are often louder than non-stressed syllables, and may have a higher or lower pitch. They may also sometimes be pronounced longer. There are sometimes differences in place or manner of articulation – in particular, vowels in unstressed syllables may have a more central (or "neutral") articulation, while those in stressed syllables have a more peripheral articulation. Stress may be realized to varying degrees on different words in a sentence; sometimes the difference between the acoustic signals of stressed and unstressed syllables are minimal.

Akangka wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2019 6:48 am Do you know what pronoun to use in organization. For example NASA, or UN? He, She, It, or They?

If the organization is acting concertedly, "it"; if the organization is acting with disunity, "they." (e.g., "NASA announced it launched a new probe," but "The UN are discussing a new resolution, but they have not yet reached a decision").

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2019 9:56 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2019 5:05 amAnother one of my newbie questions: what exactly is stress in pronunciation, physically? That is, what exactly do our mouths and throats do differently when we pronounce stressed syllables compared to when we pronounce the same syllables without stress?

Depends on the language. In English, stress is a combination of length, loudness, and pitch. It's one reason why we really struggle with long vowels in unstressed position, tending to either displace the stress or reduce the vowels.

I assume you read this and it didn't quite answer your question:

Wikipedia wrote:There are various ways in which stress manifests itself in the speech stream, and these depend to some extent on which language is being spoken. Stressed syllables are often louder than non-stressed syllables, and may have a higher or lower pitch. They may also sometimes be pronounced longer. There are sometimes differences in place or manner of articulation – in particular, vowels in unstressed syllables may have a more central (or "neutral") articulation, while those in stressed syllables have a more peripheral articulation. Stress may be realized to varying degrees on different words in a sentence; sometimes the difference between the acoustic signals of stressed and unstressed syllables are minimal.

Thank you, good to know!

I heard someone say "I shook my head yes" to mean "I nodded my head." Is this a new thing? A regional thing?

Hominid wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2019 7:39 am I heard someone say "I shook my head yes" to mean "I nodded my head." Is this a new thing? A regional thing?

It reads strangely to me, but I have seen it a few times over the years. A quick google search of "I shook my head yes" reveals a few other people bothered by it.

I've had fun with this, translating a story set in one con-culture into another con-culture's language. I had to come up with gestures as understood by the speakers of High Lulani, but these don't necessarily match the exact motions the Fezhlê characters would have actually made, and both of these may be different from what I'd write for an English-speaking audience.

Hominid wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2019 7:39 am I heard someone say "I shook my head yes" to mean "I nodded my head." Is this a new thing? A regional thing?

I wouldn't use it personally, but I'm too accustomed to hearing it for it to sound remarkable to me.

Is using a suffix -s for 3SG.PST a thing in some dialects? As in "he kepts".

Hominid wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2019 7:39 am I heard someone say "I shook my head yes" to mean "I nodded my head." Is this a new thing? A regional thing?

It's always a little weird to me, but no, it doesn't seem to be either new or regional. It's confusing because I've also encountered people talking about "shaking their head" (without even adding "yes") when they mean nodding.

Zaarin wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2019 11:07 am

Akangka wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2019 6:48 am Do you know what pronoun to use in organization. For example NASA, or UN? He, She, It, or They?

If the organization is acting concertedly, "it"; if the organization is acting with disunity, "they." (e.g., "NASA announced it launched a new probe," but "The UN are discussing a new resolution, but they have not yet reached a decision").

Note that using the plural to refer to an organization seems to be much more common in EngE, AusE, and NZE than in NAmE except for organizations that are normally referred to in the plural in all circumstances and whose names are in the plural, particularly sports teams and many bands.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 2:30 pm

Zaarin wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2019 11:07 am

Akangka wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2019 6:48 am Do you know what pronoun to use in organization. For example NASA, or UN? He, She, It, or They?

If the organization is acting concertedly, "it"; if the organization is acting with disunity, "they." (e.g., "NASA announced it launched a new probe," but "The UN are discussing a new resolution, but they have not yet reached a decision").

Note that using the plural to refer to an organization seems to be much more common in EngE, AusE, and NZE than in NAmE except for organizations that are normally referred to in the plural in all circumstances and whose names are in the plural, particularly sports teams and many bands.

Granted my education was rather formal, and my style has been described as "stuffy"...

Quick Quiz, how do you render these? I realize some of these are not the most natural way to phrase these statements, but bear with me.

The Tongolese delegation to the UN storms out of the chamber: "Tonga _ leaving."
Seven family members sit down to dinner: "The family _ gathering."
Manchester United beats City: "City _ reeling from the loss."
People are arguing at their place of business: "The office _ fighting."

I think I'd treat them all as singular. (North American.)

Yeah, is (US). The "are" here especially for Tonga and City is one of the weirder aspects of British English for me and I only discovered it after getting BBC updates on my phone.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2019 1:58 am Quick Quiz, how do you render these? I realize some of these are not the most natural way to phrase these statements, but bear with me.

The Tongolese delegation to the UN storms out of the chamber: "Tonga _ leaving."

It's "Tongan". And it depends. If this is what the head of the Tongan delegation says, I'd expect "is". If it's what an ordinary observer says, I'd certainly expect "are". If it's an official or expert observer, it might be "is". I think the ordinary observer might go for "is" in certain contexts - so, if Tonga storms out of a debate where several delegates from each country can speak, it's undoubtedly "are", but if Tonga leaves a formal vote where there's one vote per country, it's probably "is".

Seven family members sit down to dinner: "The family _ gathering."

Depends. If the narrative emphasis is on the individuals, it would be "are", whereas if the emphasis is on the family as a collective, it could be "is". In practice, may depend on what the family is doing. If they're just hanging out, you'd lean more to 'are', but if it's ordering its assassins to kill the heads of the other four families, you'd probably go with 'is'.

Manchester United beats City: "City _ reeling from the loss."

Depends. If you mean that the football squad are reeling, you need "are". If you mean that the club as a financial organisation is reeling (sales are down, they've missed out on a lucrative champion's league place, etc), you probably want "is". Unless it's specifically that you're, say, reporting on a board meeting where the directors are all personally reeling, in which case it's "are".

People are arguing at their place of business: "The office _ fighting."

Probably "is", though it's a weird sentence either way.


In most cases, plural is the safer bet: plural subjects take plural agreement even when they don't themselves end in -s. However, when a group acts with such unity of purpose and interest that it can in a given context be taken as a single entity, it can sometimes be treated as singular. So in the case of City, the team is usually plural, because there's more than one of them, and they all act as individuals, albeit in a concerted way - if the team plays well, it's because its members play well. But the club is usually singular, because it's a corporate entity, and the individual actions and thoughts of its hierarchy are usually occulted from us. On the other hand, if in a particular story there's discussion of those individuals, then the club's unity can dissolve and it can become plural. But of course it's not always clearcut - eg, I just said "if the team plays well" ("if the team play well" is also valid, and more likely in some contexts).

Why is "office" singular? Maybe it doesn't even have enough coherence to be treated as a group - maybe it's more a place ('I'm at the office') than a group? Or maybe descriptions of group states are usually singular, but with exceptions where the group is known by name? (eg, "The department is excellent", but "England are terrible"). Notably, you'd often find something like "Head Office have asked for the report by monday" (you can also have "Head Office has asked for the report by monday", but it's less likely, and sort of suggest a greater degree of monolithism).

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2019 1:58 am Quick Quiz, how do you render these? I realize some of these are not the most natural way to phrase these statements, but bear with me.

The Tongolese delegation to the UN storms out of the chamber: "Tonga _ leaving."
Seven family members sit down to dinner: "The family _ gathering."
Manchester United beats City: "City _ reeling from the loss."
People are arguing at their place of business: "The office _ fighting."

"Is" in all cases for me. "Tonga are leaving" and "The office are fighting" are completely ungrammatical for me; "The family are gathering" and "City are reeling from the loss" are both ? awkward but understandable. (only because "city" is a sports team here. If it was a literal city, then "are" would be ungrammatical again)

(Inland North American English for me)

Salmoneus wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2019 6:48 am("if the team play well" is also valid, and more likely in some contexts)

What sort of contexts? My intuition says it's completely ungrammatical.

alynnidalar wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2019 7:34 am

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2019 1:58 am Quick Quiz, how do you render these? I realize some of these are not the most natural way to phrase these statements, but bear with me.

The Tongolese delegation to the UN storms out of the chamber: "Tonga _ leaving."
Seven family members sit down to dinner: "The family _ gathering."
Manchester United beats City: "City _ reeling from the loss."
People are arguing at their place of business: "The office _ fighting."

"Is" in all cases for me. "Tonga are leaving" and "The office are fighting" are completely ungrammatical for me; "The family are gathering" and "City are reeling from the loss" are both ? awkward but understandable. (only because "city" is a sports team here. If it was a literal city, then "are" would be ungrammatical again)

(Inland North American English for me)

"Tonga are leaving" and "The office are fighting" are both completely ungrammatical for me, as is "The family are gathering". "City are reeling from the loss" is very awkward to me, and is only grammatical at all to me because of the common pattern of sports teams taking the plural (except that the sports teams that take the plural for me have names which are in the plural to begin with).

(Inland North American Engilsh here too)