Zompist Bboard Again

Salmoneus wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:00 am

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:37 am Flaubertian
Goethean
Wagnerian
Wittgensteinian

/floUbE:ti@n/
/g3:ti@n/ (with possible additional rounding)
/vAgnE:ri@n/ (but -i:ri@n is an alternative, and the more mainstream/traditional pronounciation)
/vItgnStaIni@n/

But only the last two are words I'd use on a regular basis.

With stress on the syllable before the /iə/ in each case?

Mine would be similar, but I wouldn't put a /t/ in the first, and in Wagnerian I would use /ɪə/ instead of /ɛː/ and /a/ rather than /ɑː/. (The latter is curious, because I do use /ɑː/ in Wagner; the stress shift leads to avoidance of /ɑː/.)

anteallach wrote: ↑Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:21 am

Salmoneus wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:00 am

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:37 am Flaubertian
Goethean
Wagnerian
Wittgensteinian

/floUbE:ti@n/
/g3:ti@n/ (with possible additional rounding)
/vAgnE:ri@n/ (but -i:ri@n is an alternative, and the more mainstream/traditional pronounciation)
/vItgnStaIni@n/

But only the last two are words I'd use on a regular basis.

With stress on the syllable before the /iə/ in each case?

Yes.

Mine would be similar, but I wouldn't put a /t/ in the first

Logical, but feels weird to me. I might be tempted into a /Sn/ ending instead.

, and in Wagnerian I would use /ɪə/ instead of /ɛː/

As I say, this feels 'technically right' to me, and certainly something I've heard, but isn't what I say.

and /a/ rather than /ɑː/. (The latter is curious, because I do use /ɑː/ in Wagner; the stress shift leads to avoidance of /ɑː/.)

This just feels 'wrong' to me. I think maybe in part because /v{gn@/ is such a shibbolethic pronunciation.

Going by the way these sorts of names are typically anglicized here, one gets:

Flaubert: /floʊˈbɛr/
Goethe: /ˈɡeɪti/ or /ˈɡɜrti/ (my dad though insists that /ˈɡoʊθ/ is right)
Wagner: /ˈvɑɡnər/ but an American with the last name would be /ˈwæɡnər/
Wittgenstein: /ˈ{v|w}ɪtɡənˌstaɪn/

These give:

Flaubertian: /floʊˈbɛrʃjən/
Goethean: /ˈɡeɪtiən/ or /ˈɡɜrtiən/ (my dad would probably say /ˈɡoʊθiən/ is right)
Wagnerian: /vɑɡˈn{ɪ|ɛ}rjən/
Wittgensteinian: /ˌ{v|w}ɪtɡənˈstaɪnjən/

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:37 am Flaubertian
Goethean
Wagnerian
Wittgensteinian

dunno, but my guesses are

/fləwˈber(t|0)ɨjən/
/ˈgɚtə.ən/
/vɑgˈnerɨjən/
/vitgənˈʃtajnɨjən/

I'm surprised to find people have /iː/ in Wagnerian. I thought most people had /eː/ in this word. Would it be the same for other derived adjectives like Schillerian or Hitlerian? What about cases where the original name ends in /əl/ like Purcellian or Handelian?

I have /t/ in Flaubertian, which might seem a bit odd if not for the existence of liaison. French flaubertien, though, has /s/ rather than /t/, so maybe if I talked more about Flaubert in French, /sj/ or /ʃ/ might sound more natural to me.

Nortaneous wrote:/ˈgɚtə.ən/

I'm honestly surprised by this. I can't think of any English word where I have two shwas in hiatus. I have to make the first one /iː/ just to pronounce this word at all. Having done that, though, I'm honestly tempted to go full native like Travis' father.

Wittgensteinian is odd. For some reason, I want to lax the stressed vowel--even though I can't imagine doing this in Einsteinian. Maybe I'm being influenced by Constantinian and Augustinian?

I've got Wittgenst[ɪ]nian, fwiw. I wouldn't be shocked to discover I also have Einst[ɪ]nian as well, come to think of it. (But it's Wittgen[ʃ]tein and Ein[s]tein, for some reason, no doubt because I've been party to more conversations about Wittgenstein where English-speakers sort of nod in the direction of German---silliness like [ˈwal.təɹ ˈbɛn.jəˌmin].)

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:40 am I'm surprised to find people have /iː/ in Wagnerian. I thought most people had /eː/ in this word. Would it be the same for other derived adjectives like Schillerian or Hitlerian? What about cases where the original name ends in /əl/ like Purcellian or Handelian?

I'd use /e/ in all of these.

Nortaneous wrote:/ˈgɚtə.ən/

I'm honestly surprised by this. I can't think of any English word where I have two shwas in hiatus.

It's bad, but every other option is worse. Gurdian? Presumably hurdy-.

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:26 pm

Nortaneous wrote:/ˈgɚtə.ən/

I'm honestly surprised by this. I can't think of any English word where I have two shwas in hiatus.

It's bad, but every other option is worse. Gurdian? Presumably hurdy-.

At least here, the traditional rendering of StG final /ə/ is /i/... except in the word danke for some reason, which has been borrowed with its StG pronunciation more or less for some reason.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:40 am I'm surprised to find people have /iː/ in Wagnerian. I thought most people had /eː/ in this word. Would it be the same for other derived adjectives like Schillerian or Hitlerian? What about cases where the original name ends in /əl/ like Purcellian or Handelian?

For me at least, it's based on the spelling of the adjective, not on the phonetic vowel used in the pronunciation of the base name. So "Purcellian" would have /ɛ/ because that is what is regular before a double L; the others would have "long e", because that is what is regular before a single consonant letter followed by an ending like -ian. It's a pattern that I consciously apply because I feel more comfortable following consistent patterns for this kind of thing. I didn't automatically develop any particularly strong or definite sense of what vowel quality to use for newly stressed vowels in contexts like this: if I were just going by ear, even stuff like /hɪtˈləriən/ feels possible to me.

For Schillerian, Hitlerian, Purcellian, and Handelian I would use /ɛ/ across the board (aside from the fact that the vowel is audibly closer in the first two and centralized in the last two for me).

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:47 pm At least here, the traditional rendering of StG final /ə/ is /i/... except in the word danke for some reason, which has been borrowed with its StG pronunciation more or less for some reason.

The traditional rendering of Goethe that I'm used to is [gɚtʰə], with suppression of t-flapping.

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:06 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:47 pm At least here, the traditional rendering of StG final /ə/ is /i/... except in the word danke for some reason, which has been borrowed with its StG pronunciation more or less for some reason.

The traditional rendering of Goethe that I'm used to is [gɚtʰə], with suppression of t-flapping.

I do agree that normally t-flapping is suppressed in the pronunciation of Goethe, regardless of how one otherwise pronounces it.

Interestingly enough my dad strongly objected to your pronunciation of Goethe, on the grounds that "it doesn't have an <r> in it".

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:06 pmThe traditional rendering of Goethe that I'm used to is [gɚtʰə], with suppression of t-flapping.

Sure, but the point of these examples is to look at the kinds of alterations names undergo when they are adjectivised. I'm starting from the assumption that they will be less altered than common nouns because of the necessity of clearly linking the derived adjective to the proper name.

Final vowels present challenges for vowel-initial suffixes, often leading to elision or epenthesis. For instance, "Toronto" is often collquially pronounced with a final shwa (humourously rendered "Chranna"). But */trɑn.ə.ən/ is not a possible demonym. The two most common variants seem to be "Torontonian" (with epenthesis) or "Torontian" (with elision). Compare "Bostonian" where even the sequence /ən.ən/ or /ən.iː.ən/ is avoided.

Some people are just in free variation ... I just heard somebody say [pæθs] and [pæðz] within eight seconds of each other ...

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:40 am Sure, but the point of these examples is to look at the kinds of alterations names undergo when they are adjectivised. I'm starting from the assumption that they will be less altered than common nouns because of the necessity of clearly linking the derived adjective to the proper name.

Final vowels present challenges for vowel-initial suffixes, often leading to elision or epenthesis. For instance, "Toronto" is often collquially pronounced with a final shwa (humourously rendered "Chranna"). But */trɑn.ə.ən/ is not a possible demonym. The two most common variants seem to be "Torontonian" (with epenthesis) or "Torontian" (with elision). Compare "Bostonian" where even the sequence /ən.ən/ or /ən.iː.ən/ is avoided.

Note however that such words commonly have a stress shift, which readily results in the replacement of a schwa with an unreduced vowel.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:40 am Final vowels present challenges for vowel-initial suffixes, often leading to elision or epenthesis. For instance, "Toronto" is often collquially pronounced with a final shwa (humourously rendered "Chranna"). But */trɑn.ə.ən/ is not a possible demonym. The two most common variants seem to be "Torontonian" (with epenthesis) or "Torontian" (with elision). Compare "Bostonian" where even the sequence /ən.ən/ or /ən.iː.ən/ is avoided.

Right, but those are presumably lexicalized. As far as I know, there's no lexicalized adjectival derivative of Goethe in -an, and there's no clear winner as to what the regularly-irregular derivation would be, nor are there enough examples of demonyms derived from places ending in /ə/ <e> for analogy to be useful. So morphological clarity beats phonological restriction.

From Google, it looks like "Goethean" is the typical form; I'm not sure how else it would be pronounced, unless it's /gɚtʰɨjən/. (Is blocking of t-flapping cause to postulate a marginal phoneme /tʰ/ which only appears in loans from German? But not everyone has it - I know someone who pronounces Beethoven as [beɪ̯ˀt̚.hoʊ̯vən] (i.e. bait-hoven), and seemingly can't hear the difference between this and the correct pronunciation.)

The normal pronunciation of Beethoven here seems to be with [tʰ].

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:44 pm The normal pronunciation of Beethoven here seems to be with [tʰ].

After thinking about this for far too long, I have free variation between [ˈbeɪɾɵʊvɨ̃n] and [ˌbeɪˈtʰɵʊvɨ̃n], with [tʰ] appearing when it’s the onset of a stressed syllable, per usual English phonology. Oh, and I think the ultima of the first variant can be [vɱ̩].

"Beethoven" with a flap (and to a lesser extent with non-initial primary stress) sounds really odd to me. I consistently pronounce it with [tʰ] but stress retained on the initial syllable. Now I'll have to pay more attention when other people say it...

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:44 pm The normal pronunciation of Beethoven here seems to be with [tʰ].

Right, that's the normal educated pronunciation, but some people don't have it--

me: [ˈbej.tʰɤvn̩]
him: [ˈbeɪ̯ˀt̚.hoʊ̯vən]
me: not [ˈbejˀt̚.hɤvn̩], [ˈbej.tʰɤvn̩]
him: what? that's what I'm saying! [ˈbeɪ̯ˀt.hoʊ̯vən]!
me: you're saying [ˈbejˀt̚.hɤvn̩]. it's not that. it's [ˈbej.tʰɤvn̩].
him: you said the same thing twice!

Whimemsz wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:41 pm Now I'll have to pay more attention when other people say it...

There's also the Insane Clown Posse option, Beef Oven

(^: