Zompist Bboard Again

Posted: **Sat Jan 20, 2024 6:01 pm**

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Jan 20, 2024 5:54 pm
Ahzoh wrote: ↑Sat Jan 20, 2024 5:36 pm
bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Jan 20, 2024 5:09 pm

Could you have two declensions, then?
I thought about it, but I have never heard of a morphemic chainshift where the dative (or instrumental) morpheme becomes the accusative morpheme as the accusative morpheme becomes the nominative morpheme.
Searching the Surrey Syncretisms Database, Telugu has a situation where accusative and nominative fall together in Class D nouns, while nominative and genitive merge in the plural. Not quite parallel to your situation, but I see no reason for your pattern of mergers to be implausible.

Are class D nouns kind of inanimate?

Good to know my idea of merging the genitive plural of the animates with the nominative plural is attested.

Posted: **Sat Jan 20, 2024 6:13 pm**

Ahzoh wrote: ↑Sat Jan 20, 2024 6:01 pm
bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Jan 20, 2024 5:54 pm
Ahzoh wrote: ↑Sat Jan 20, 2024 5:36 pm
I thought about it, but I have never heard of a morphemic chainshift where the dative (or instrumental) morpheme becomes the accusative morpheme as the accusative morpheme becomes the nominative morpheme.
Searching the Surrey Syncretisms Database, Telugu has a situation where accusative and nominative fall together in Class D nouns, while nominative and genitive merge in the plural. Not quite parallel to your situation, but I see no reason for your pattern of mergers to be implausible.
Are class D nouns kind of inanimate?

They might be, but I don’t actually know.

Good to know my idea of merging the genitive plural of the animates with the nominative plural is attested.

Well, in Telugu it’s not just the animate plural, it’s all plurals.

Posted: **Sat Jan 20, 2024 7:16 pm**

Well, in Telugu it’s not just the animate plural, it’s all plurals.

Hmm, maybe I'll make it a later development then.

A big goal for me is to give Vrkhazhian the equivalent of broken plurals but instead of being for plurals it's the construct state. So lots of ablauting and irregularity of forms when nouns are placed in it.

So what I have so far is something like this for CVCC-shaped nouns:

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Absolutus > Constructus
C₁iC₂C₃-  > C₁iC₂C₂iC₃- (if medial is obstruent)
C₁iC₂C₃-  > C₁aC₂C₂aC₃- (if medial is obstruent)
C₁iC₂C₃-  > C₁iC₂iC₃-
C₁iC₂C₃-  > C₁aC₂aC₃-

C₁uC₂C₃-  > C₁uC₂C₂uC₃- (if medial is obstruent)
C₁uC₂C₃-  > C₁aC₂C₂aC₃- (if medial is obstruent)
C₁uC₂C₃-  > C₁uC₂uC₃-
C₁uC₂C₃-  > C₁aC₂aC₃-

C₁aC₂C₃-  > C₁aC₂C₂aC₃- (if medial is obstruent)
C₁aC₂C₃-  > C₁aC₂aC₃-

C₁eC₂C₃-  > C₁eC₂C₂eC₃- (if medial is obstruent)
C₁eC₂C₃-  > C₁eC₂eC₃-

Only examples I have is:

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        Status Rectus    : Status Constructus
"gate"  ˀigras / ˀigrāza : ˀaggar(a) / ˀaggarā
"sword" ḫurkas / ḫurkāza : ḫarak(a)  / ḫarakā
"woman" lumbum / lumbūma : lumub(u)  / lumubū

CVC-shaped nouns go a different way, but only for masculine and feminine nouns:

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Rectus     > Constructus
C₁aC₂(C₂)- > C₁uC₂(C₂)-
C₁eC₂(C₂)- > C₁iC₂(C₂)-
C₁uC₂(C₂)- > C₁uC₂(C₂)-
C₁iC₂(C₂)- > C₁iC₂(C₂)-

Examples:

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         Status Rectus    : Status Constructus
"mother" narum  / narūma  : nur(u)  / nurū
"father" darim  / darīma  : dur(i)  / durī
"queen"  kabbum / kabbūma : kub(bu) / kubbū
"king"   kabbim / kabbīma : kub(bi) / kubbī
"reed"   manas  / manāza  : man(a)  / manā (a counterexample)

Posted: **Sun Jan 21, 2024 3:46 pm**

Proto-Hesperic pronouns!

Posted: **Tue Jan 23, 2024 8:58 pm**

I've been reviewing, revising, and expanding on the verbal morphology of a Tungusic-based bogolang I've mostly had on the back burner for the last decade.

In fact, I'm not gonna look up the last time I posted in this thread, because I have a feeling I might have been fiddling with the same thing back then, lost steam, and am only now getting back to it.

Anyway, the general thrust is to radically strip down the inherited toolbox and then grow it back up again with an eye to Japanese calquing as much as "seems plausible". I'm enjoying it. I might even reach a complete statement of the system this time -- whatever that means -- ... even if I come back around and tear it all down again later.

Posted: **Wed Jan 24, 2024 12:34 am**

Been working on Vrkhazhian's prosody.
It's a weight-sensitive system that involves the last three syllables, so roughly the stress patterns are like this:

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(ˈH L) σ]
(H ˈH) σ]

(ˈL L) σ]
(L ˈH) σ]

This often results in various vowel elisions:

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Final light:
σ H (ˈL L) L] > σ (ˈH L) H] (apocope) or σ H (ˈH L) L] (vowel lengthening) or σ H (L ˈH) L] (gemination of suffix)
σ H (L ˈH) L] > no change

σ H (ˈH L) L] > no change or σ (H ˈH) H] (apocope)
σ H (H ˈH) L] > no change

σ L (ˈL L) L] > no change or σ (ˈL L) H] (apocope) or σ L (ˈH L) L] (vowel lengthening) or σ L (L ˈH) L] (gemination of suffix)
σ L (L ˈH) L] > no change or σ (H ˈH) L] (pretonic syncope)

σ L (ˈH L) L] > no change or σ (L ˈH) H] (apocope)
σ L (H ˈH) L] > no change

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Final Heavy:
σ H (ˈL L) H] > σ (H ˈH) H] (apocope) or σ H (ˈH L) H] (vowel lengthening) or σ H (L ˈH) H] (gemination of suffix)
σ H (L ˈH) H] > no change

σ H (ˈH L) H] > no change
σ H (H ˈH) H] > no change

σ L (ˈL L) H] > no change or σ L (ˈH L) H] (vowel lengthening) or σ L (L ˈH) H] (gemination of suffix)
σ L (L ˈH) H] > no change or σ (H ˈH) H] (pretonic syncope)

σ L (ˈH L) H] > no change
σ L (H ˈH) H] > no change

A specific example, using the word sammalim "crocodile", which shows why the nominative singular is -im and nominative plural is -īma:

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Rhythm-based apocope:
1.a) sam-má-li-ma > sám-ma-lim
     H  -L -L -L    H  -L -H

1.b) sám-ma-lī́-ma > sám-ma-lī́-ma
     H  -L -H -L    H  -L -H -L

I have run into issues when some words interact with possessive suffixes, such as -ku (3fs) and -kun (3fp) that result in undesirable outcomes, such as the elision of the gender vowel of the suffix or the noun. So I try to solve it with some prosodic allomorphy (examples 2aii and 2cii):

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2.a) sam-má-li-ku > i)  sám-ma-lik (expected but undesired)
     H  -L -L -L        H  -L -H
                  > ii) sám-ma-lík-ku (unexpected but desired)
                        H  -L -H  -L

2.b) sám-ma-lī́-ku > sám-ma-lī́-ku
     H  -L -H -L    H  -L -H -L

2.c) sam-má-li-kun > i)  sam-mál-kun (expected but undesired)
     H  -L -L -H         H  -H  -H
                   > ii) sám-ma-lík-kun (unexpected but desired)
                         H  -L -H  -H

2.d) sám-ma-lī́-kun > sám-ma-lī́-kun
     H  -L -H -H     H  -L -H -H

Posted: **Wed Jan 24, 2024 6:52 am**

And onward with Proto-Hesperic: here's the verb (addendum).

Posted: **Sun Jan 28, 2024 10:06 am**

Last installment of Proto-Hesperic Gramuary: syntax. All the Proto-Hesperic grammar posts can be conveniently accesses via this page.

Of course, there is still quite something to do about this language, but the foundations have been laid. What now remains to do is to edit the posts and the existing lexicon (about 800 words), combine them into a grammar sketch, fill in missing details, correct errors, then try out the language doing translations, and all that.

And then I shall go on deriving individual Hesperic languages from it, including the new (and hopefully final) version of Old Albic. I am looking forward to that!

Posted: **Mon Jan 29, 2024 5:24 pm**

An updated table reflecting the new case system. I think it is all but complete, unless I decide to add some locative cases. Now I can work on reworking Vrkhazhian's verbal system, including the agreement markers.

Posted: **Tue Feb 06, 2024 3:46 am**

Came up with some new words in Ossmalic:
ксьвандут /ˈkʰʲu̯ān.tǔt/ [ˈcʰu̯ān.tǔt] "temple"
ксьвандуть /ˈkʰʲu̯án.tùtʲ/ [ˈcʰu̯án.tùt͡ʃ] "temples"
смал /ˈmál/ "mountain"
смаль /ˈmālʲ/ "mountains"
хвалаі /ˈxu̯ǎ.lāj/ "horse"
хваледдье /ˈxu̯ǎ.lē.dʲè/ [xu̯ǎ.lē.d͡ʒè/] "horses"
маддсьаі /ˈmàt.tʰʲàj/ [ˈmàt.t͡ʃʰàj] "human, person"
маддсьеддье /ˈmàt.tʰʲè.dʲè/ [ˈmàt.t͡ʃʰè.d͡ʒè] "humans, people"

Ossmalic doesn't really have adjective as standalone words, there are some but they are few. Instead Ossmalic opts to uses either verbs or adjective prefixes such as these:
маг- /màk/ "black, dark"
ос- /òs/ "white, light"
тьил- /tʲíl/ [t͡ʃíl] "evil, wicked"

Here are some words that involve such prefixes:
Оссмаль <Ossmal'> /òs.ˈmālʲ/ -- The mountain range that the Ossmalic people live around
Магхвалаі <Magxvalay> /màk.ˈxu̯ǎ.lāj/ -- A famous Ossmalic king; his name means "Black Horse"
Тьилмаддсьаі <Tilmadds'ay> /tʲíl.ˈmàt.tʰʲàj/ [t͡ʃíl.ˈmàt.t͡ʃʰàj] -- A powerful and feared demon that Magxvalai defeated long ago; its name literally means "Wicked Being"

Posted: **Tue Feb 06, 2024 10:10 am**

Ahzoh wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2024 3:46 am Came up with some new words in Ossmalic:
ксьвандут /ˈkʰʲu̯ān.tǔt/ [ˈcʰu̯ān.tǔt] "temple"
ксьвандуть /ˈkʰʲu̯án.tùtʲ/ [ˈcʰu̯án.tùt͡ʃ] "temples"
смал /ˈmál/ "mountain"
смаль /ˈmālʲ/ "mountains"
хвалаі /ˈxu̯ǎ.lāj/ "horse"
хваледдье /ˈxu̯ǎ.lē.dʲè/ [xu̯ǎ.lē.d͡ʒè/] "horses"
маддсьаі /ˈmàt.tʰʲàj/ [ˈmàt.t͡ʃʰàj] "human, person"
маддсьеддье /ˈmàt.tʰʲè.dʲè/ [ˈmàt.t͡ʃʰè.d͡ʒè] "humans, people"

Ossmalic doesn't really have adjective as standalone words, there are some but they are few. Instead Ossmalic opts to uses either verbs or adjective prefixes such as these:
маг- /màk/ "black, dark"
ос- /òs/ "white, light"
тьил- /tʲíl/ [t͡ʃíl] "evil, wicked"

Here are some words that involve such prefixes:
Оссмаль <Ossmal'> /òs.ˈmālʲ/ -- The mountain range that the Ossmalic people live around
Магхвалаі <Magxvalay> /màk.ˈxu̯ǎ.lāj/ -- A famous Ossmalic king; his name means "Black Horse"
Тьилмаддсьаі <Tilmadds'ay> /tʲíl.ˈmàt.tʰʲàj/ [t͡ʃíl.ˈmàt.t͡ʃʰàj] -- A powerful and feared demon that Magxvalai defeated long ago; its name literally means "Wicked Being"

Just a minor quibble - in at least Russian Cyrillic <е> is normally palatalizing, so <ье> is redundant if you are using that as a basis (which I kind of get the feeling that Ossmalic is meant to be like a minority language in Russia). Of course, in non-Russian, non-Belarusian Cyrillic (e.g. Ukrainian, Serbian Cyrillic) <е> is not palatalizing, and in the case of Ukrainian (or old Serbian) Cyrillic if you want palatalization you use <є> instead.

Posted: **Tue Feb 06, 2024 11:12 am**

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2024 10:10 am Just a minor quibble - in at least Russian Cyrillic <е> is normally palatalizing, so <ье> is redundant if you are using that as a basis (which I kind of get the feeling that Ossmalic is meant to be like a minority language in Russia). Of course, in non-Russian, non-Belarusian Cyrillic (e.g. Ukrainian, Serbian Cyrillic) <е> is not palatalizing, and in the case of Ukrainian (or old Serbian) Cyrillic if you want palatalization you use <є> instead.

Nah, I don't have to abide by Slavic spelling conventions; it's not a Slavic language. It's also why I don't use iotated vowel letters like Ya or the dedicated palatalized consonants like Che and Sha.

I also hate the asymmetry that Cyrillic o looks the same as Latin o but Cyrillic e is different than Latin e. I'd rather that use the weird c-lookin letter for something less binary like a central vowel.

Posted: **Fri Feb 09, 2024 10:32 pm**

Not 100% sure this is the right thread for it… but further on my explorations of writing systems, I made myself a bamboo pen:

It’s actually surprisingly easy — I highly recommend giving it a go if you have any bamboo near you. (Or reeds, which are the more traditional choice.)

Posted: **Sat Feb 10, 2024 12:27 am**

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Feb 09, 2024 10:32 pmNot 100% sure this is the right thread for it…

IMHO, it most definately is.
(see below)

but further on my explorations of writing systems, I made myself a bamboo pen:
— I highly recommend giving it a go if you have any bamboo near you. (Or reeds, which are the more traditional choice.)

That is super cool! Kudos on accomplishing it.

Posted: **Sat Feb 10, 2024 1:07 am**

keenir wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 12:27 am
bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Feb 09, 2024 10:32 pm but further on my explorations of writing systems, I made myself a bamboo pen:
— I highly recommend giving it a go if you have any bamboo near you. (Or reeds, which are the more traditional choice.)
That is super cool! Kudos on accomplishing it.

Seconded!

Posted: **Sat Feb 10, 2024 4:03 am**

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 1:07 am
keenir wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 12:27 am
bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Feb 09, 2024 10:32 pm but further on my explorations of writing systems, I made myself a bamboo pen:
— I highly recommend giving it a go if you have any bamboo near you. (Or reeds, which are the more traditional choice.)
That is super cool! Kudos on accomplishing it.
Seconded!

Thirded.

Posted: **Sat Feb 10, 2024 6:38 am**

Thanks all!

Posted: **Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:45 am**

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Feb 09, 2024 10:32 pm It’s actually surprisingly easy — I highly recommend giving it a go if you have any bamboo near you. (Or reeds, which are the more traditional choice.)

Looks great, and your calligraphy as well - me, I've always been so-so at best at handicrafts and my handwriting would make a doctor's look good, so I envy you a tiny bit

Posted: **Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:18 pm**

hwhatting wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:45 am
bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Feb 09, 2024 10:32 pm It’s actually surprisingly easy — I highly recommend giving it a go if you have any bamboo near you. (Or reeds, which are the more traditional choice.)
Looks great, and your calligraphy as well - me, I've always been so-so at best at handicrafts and my handwriting would make a doctor's look good, so I envy you a tiny bit

Oh, rest assured, this is not my normal handwriting. And even as calligraphy it’s quite wonky if you look closely.

Incidentally, I actually find that my writing naturally becomes a lot more legible when using a broad-edged pen such as this one — the pen itself makes it easier to form letters, since lines in different directions get different amounts of friction. Such things are a big reason why I’m interested in the relationship between writing instruments and their resulting scripts. (I had plans to write a lot about that in my Writing Systems thread, before it unfortunately got bogged down in the quagmire of endless discussion.)

Posted: **Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:38 pm**

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Feb 09, 2024 10:32 pm Not 100% sure this is the right thread for it… but further on my explorations of writing systems, I made myself a bamboo pen:

It’s actually surprisingly easy — I highly recommend giving it a go if you have any bamboo near you. (Or reeds, which are the more traditional choice.)

That's awesome! How did you do it?

Zompist Bboard Again

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