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Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:33 am
by anteallach
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 5:54 pm
Travis B. wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 5:25 pm
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:18 pm So do others have the "lot" vowel in Florida? For me, the "Flor-" patterns with the Latinate element in "floral, florid(ity), floriography, inflorescence" et. al.
LOT in Florida is characteristic of traditional East Coast dialects in the US.
I suppose I have heard it in some older people, now that you mention it. I was more wondering if anybody else here had it.
It’s the normal pronunciation in BrE.

Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2022 4:01 am
by Ryusenshi
Inspired by the discussion about nephew: I originally pronounced Stephen as [ˈstɛfən], instead of [ˈstiːvən] (homophone of Steven). My mother really likes Stephen King, and always says [stɛfœn].

Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2022 2:24 pm
by Travis B.
Ryusenshi wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 4:01 am Inspired by the discussion about nephew: I originally pronounced Stephen as [ˈstɛfən], instead of [ˈstiːvən] (homophone of Steven). My mother really likes Stephen King, and always says [stɛfœn].
Indeed, Stephen is the traditional spelling, and Steven is a modern respelling that takes the pronunciation into account.

Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:07 pm
by Xhin
If it hasn't been mentioned yet, I unlearned /hir\o/ for gyro, replacing it with /jir\o/ or /jiro/ and correcting anyone who used /dZair\o/ ... only to find out that that word has 16 distinct and acceptable pronunciations based on region of the world and whichever region of Greece the word originated from. These days I just stick with /hir\o/ or /dZair\o/ depending on who I'm talking to. People in the American southeast seem to stick to one of those.

Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:47 pm
by Travis B.
Xhin wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:07 pm If it hasn't been mentioned yet, I unlearned /hir\o/ for gyro, replacing it with /jir\o/ or /jiro/ and correcting anyone who used /dZair\o/ ... only to find out that that word has 16 distinct and acceptable pronunciations based on region of the world and whichever region of Greece the word originated from. These days I just stick with /hir\o/ or /dZair\o/ depending on who I'm talking to. People in the American southeast seem to stick to one of those.
I normally pronounce it /ˈjiroʊ/ or /ˈjɜroʊ/ largely in free variation, which seems to be the norm here. Of course, if one wanted to be a prescriptivist, one would insist on pronouncing it with an /s/ at the end as in the original Greek (as the form with /s/ is the singular in Greek, with the /s/-less form in English being an English backformation based on interpreting <s> as signifying a plural).

Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:20 am
by Raphael
Huh? Where did you ever get an initial /h/ for that one from?

Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:32 am
by jal
Raphael wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:20 amHuh? Where did you ever get an initial /h/ for that one from?
English pronunciation of presumed /x/?

In Dutch, we have "gyro" (/xiro/) without -s as prefix in words like <gyroscoop> ("gyroscope") and "gyros" (/xirOs/) to denote the meat dish similar to shoarma/showarma/kebab.


JAL

Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:38 am
by Linguoboy
Raphael wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:20 amHuh? Where did you ever get an initial /h/ for that one from?
I assume by analogy with recent borrowings from Spanish with /h/ for j or g such as jalapeno and Geraldo. (It's not at all unusual to hear this sort of hypercorrection in culinary contexts. I once had a server pronounce mujaddara with /h/--repeatedly, so I know it wasn't simply a mishearing.)

Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:43 am
by Travis B.
Linguoboy wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:38 am
Raphael wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:20 amHuh? Where did you ever get an initial /h/ for that one from?
I assume by analogy with recent borrowings from Spanish with /h/ for j or g such as jalapeno and Geraldo. (It's not at all unusual to hear this sort of hypercorrection in culinary contexts. I once had a server pronounce mujaddara with /h/--repeatedly, so I know it wasn't simply a mishearing.)
I figured it was this sort of thing, but then I thought that English borrowings of Spanish <g> before a front vowel tend to take /dʒ/ rather than /h/ unless the speaker has trained themselves to do otherwise (cf. Ar/dʒ/entina).

Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:22 am
by Rounin Ryuuji
I have an odd anecdote with that word. I tend to pronounce it ['çuʊ̯.ɹoʊ̯]. While I was growing up, I had a family member who owned a restaurant bought from a Greek-speaker, and apparently in that person's dialect (I don't know which one), the [y] vowel (or something like it) was preserved in that context (I'm guessing the [ç] represented the nearest English approximation of some fricated form of the historical initial /g/, which I would guess was either [ç] or [ʝ]). Pronunciation as a homophone of hero is, in my experience, more common, however.

Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:28 am
by Linguoboy
Travis B. wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:43 am
Linguoboy wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:38 am
Raphael wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:20 amHuh? Where did you ever get an initial /h/ for that one from?
I assume by analogy with recent borrowings from Spanish with /h/ for j or g such as jalapeno and Geraldo. (It's not at all unusual to hear this sort of hypercorrection in culinary contexts. I once had a server pronounce mujaddara with /h/--repeatedly, so I know it wasn't simply a mishearing.)
I figured it was this sort of thing, but then I thought that English borrowings of Spanish <g> before a front vowel tend to take /dʒ/ rather than /h/ unless the speaker has trained themselves to do otherwise (cf. Ar/dʒ/entina).
Note the qualifier "recent". I'm not sure how soon after its independence in 1816 "Argentina" came into common use in English, but it's important to note in this case that "the Argentine" (with /dʒ/) was already in use as the name for the region at the time and doubtless influenced the pronunciation.

Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:34 am
by Travis B.
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:22 am I have an odd anecdote with that word. I tend to pronounce it ['çuʊ̯.ɹoʊ̯]. While I was growing up, I had a family member who owned a restaurant bought from a Greek-speaker, and apparently in that person's dialect (I don't know which one), the [y] vowel (or something like it) was preserved in that context (I'm guessing the [ç] represented the nearest English approximation of some fricated form of the historical initial /g/, which I would guess was either [ç] or [ʝ]). Pronunciation as a homophone of hero is, in my experience, more common, however.
I'd be damn well surprised if a rounded realization of <υ> survived in any Greek variety outside of Tsakonian...

Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:58 am
by Xhin
Raphael wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:20 am Huh? Where did you ever get an initial /h/ for that one from?
That's not a huge stretch from /C/, which is evidently how it's pronounced in Greece.

Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 12:47 pm
by Rounin Ryuuji
Travis B. wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:34 am
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:22 am I have an odd anecdote with that word. I tend to pronounce it ['çuʊ̯.ɹoʊ̯]. While I was growing up, I had a family member who owned a restaurant bought from a Greek-speaker, and apparently in that person's dialect (I don't know which one), the [y] vowel (or something like it) was preserved in that context (I'm guessing the [ç] represented the nearest English approximation of some fricated form of the historical initial /g/, which I would guess was either [ç] or [ʝ]). Pronunciation as a homophone of hero is, in my experience, more common, however.
I'd be damn well surprised if a rounded realization of <υ> survived in any Greek variety outside of Tsakonian...
I never met the guy personally, but that might well have been what it was.

Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 12:51 pm
by Travis B.
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 12:47 pm
Travis B. wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:34 am
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:22 am I have an odd anecdote with that word. I tend to pronounce it ['çuʊ̯.ɹoʊ̯]. While I was growing up, I had a family member who owned a restaurant bought from a Greek-speaker, and apparently in that person's dialect (I don't know which one), the [y] vowel (or something like it) was preserved in that context (I'm guessing the [ç] represented the nearest English approximation of some fricated form of the historical initial /g/, which I would guess was either [ç] or [ʝ]). Pronunciation as a homophone of hero is, in my experience, more common, however.
I'd be damn well surprised if a rounded realization of <υ> survived in any Greek variety outside of Tsakonian...
I never met the guy personally, but that might well have been what it was.
Just for the record, Tsakonian is a Doric Greek language spoken by a quite small population (about 2000-4000 people at most) in a relatively limited portion of the Peloponnese. I somehow doubt the likelihood that he spoken Tsakonian.

Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 3:47 pm
by Richard W
Xhin wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:07 pm If it hasn't been mentioned yet, I unlearned /hir\o/ for gyro, replacing it with /jir\o/ or /jiro/ and correcting anyone who used /dZair\o/ ... only to find out that that word has 16 distinct and acceptable pronunciations based on region of the world and whichever region of Greece the word originated from. These days I just stick with /hir\o/ or /dZair\o/ depending on who I'm talking to. People in the American southeast seem to stick to one of those.
I've only ever heard /dʒaɪrəʊ/ for the stabilisation device.

Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 4:03 pm
by Richard W
Travis B. wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:34 am I'd be damn well surprised if a rounded realization of <υ> survived in any Greek variety outside of Tsakonian...
Is this, inter alia, an assertion that Maniot and Old Athenian are extinct?

Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 4:12 pm
by Rounin Ryuuji
I was also told the pronunciation with /juː/ by a singularly unimaginative person, who probably wouldn't know anything about the history of the Hellenic languages, nor have it in him to concoct a fanciful story to justify using an odd pronunciation of the name of a sandwich. I haven't the slightest idea where the original Greek-speaker came from, or what became of him (or even if he's still alive; he would have to be at least in his 80s by now).

Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn

Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:05 am
by Linguoboy
TIL that the surname of former NFL quarterback Brett Favre is pronounced as if spelled "Farve".

Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn

Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 12:05 pm
by Travis B.
Linguoboy wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:05 am TIL that the surname of former NFL quarterback Brett Favre is pronounced as if spelled "Farve".
I personally have never heard another pronunciation myself.