Zompist Bboard Again

I put the primary stress on the first syllable in Beethoven and use voiceless t, but I don't actually think that's an exceptional phonological feature of the pronunciation of this name, or especially characteristic of names from German. English-formed compounds like "Baytown" (my pronunciation of it; I don't know how the actual place-name is pronounced by people who live there) can contain the same sequence of a primary-stressed vowel followed by voiceless t followed by an unreduced vowel. T-lenition is not always present before an unreduced vowel (or alternatively, a vowel in a syllable with secondary stress; my pronunciation could be analyzed as /ˈbeˌtovən/). Another word that tends to have voiceless t is "latex" (discussed in some phonological literature). Word-final vowels are maybe a more ambiguous environment, being less prone to reduction even when fully unstressed, so I think /t/ before word-final vowels shows a bit more variability between speakers. For example, I tend for some reason to pronounce "veto" with voiceless t, but I don't think voiced t is impossible here. I have heard that some speakers pronounce "Plato" with voiceless t, but I use voiced t there.

In the case of [ˈbeɪˌtʰoʊvən] I agree - that case could be easily construed to be due to the effect of secondary stress. However, [ˈɡɝtʰə] is much harder to construe in such a fashion because the vowel following the [tʰ] is clearly unstressed,

"Autism" is one more word which resists T flapping.

Pabappa wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:34 am "Autism" is one more word which resists T flapping.

Again, this is probably due to secondary stress, as the /ɪ/ of -ism very frequently receives secondary stress.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:30 am In the case of [ˈbeɪˌtʰoʊvən] I agree - that case could be easily construed to be due to the effect of secondary stress. However, [ˈɡɝtʰə] is much harder to construe in such a fashion because the vowel following the [tʰ] is clearly unstressed,

An alternate interpretation is /ˈgɝˌtʰʌ/, cf. the technically correct pronunciation of 'pho' - but 've[tʰ]o' vs. 'Pla[ɾ]o' is harder to explain.

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:10 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:30 am In the case of [ˈbeɪˌtʰoʊvən] I agree - that case could be easily construed to be due to the effect of secondary stress. However, [ˈɡɝtʰə] is much harder to construe in such a fashion because the vowel following the [tʰ] is clearly unstressed,

An alternate interpretation is /ˈgɝˌtʰʌ/, cf. the technically correct pronunciation of 'pho' - but 've[tʰ]o' vs. 'Pla[ɾ]o' is harder to explain.

The problem you get with a secondary-stressed /ʌ/ is in dialects like mine where /ə/ and /ʌ/ are not very similar due to the backing of /ʌ/ (my /ʌ/ is an actual back vowel, not a central one), so trying to explain away how it is underlyingly secondary-stressed /ʌ/ but sounds just like /ə/ is hard to justify.

About veto versus Plato, though for me there is secondary stress at work in veto whereas there is no secondary stress in Plato.

"Veto" vs "Plato" isn't a problem for me because I have a flap in both!

I suffix -ian to words ending in /ain/ as though they were spelt -ine, so Wittgensteinian is /ˌvItgənˈstInjən/.

I don't have flapping of "t" in "Beethoven", "autism" or "magnetism".

Space60 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:49 pm I don't have flapping of "t" in "Beethoven" or "autism".

Yeah, but these Ts precede a stressed vowel, here [ˌbeɪˈtʰoʊvn̩] and [ˌɑˈtʰɪzm].

Also "AT&T" the phone company has no flapping for me.

Ser wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:53 pm

Space60 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:49 pm I don't have flapping of "t" in "Beethoven" or "autism".

Yeah, but these Ts precede a stressed vowel, here [ˌbeɪˈtʰoʊvn̩] and [ˌɑˈtʰɪzm].

Huh? For me (and for everyone else I've ever heard say those words...), both of those have primary stress on the first syllable.

well, its stressed in autistic, which I think might be the reason why it retains its articulation in related words, but I have never heard autism with penultimate stress either.

Vijay wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:07 pm

Ser wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:53 pmYeah, but these Ts precede a stressed vowel, here [ˌbeɪˈtʰoʊvn̩] and [ˌɑˈtʰɪzm].

Huh? For me (and for everyone else I've ever heard say those words...), both of those have primary stress on the first syllable.

Pabappa wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:35 pm well, its stressed in autistic, which I think might be the reason why it retains its articulation in related words, but I have never heard autism with penultimate stress either.

Okay, I guess I'm wrong about "autism". I notice that every dictionary I consult lists the primary stress on "au-" too, as you guys say.

Interestingly, it looks like I'm genuinely unable to parse the stress pattern of this word. I just listened to the three recordings on Forvo and the one on Dictionary.com, and I keep perceiving it as if it had primary stress on "-tism". Huh.

I guess I now feel what my classmates in a linguistics class once felt when we were asked about where the primary stress was in "conversation", and about 60% or 70% of the class chose the "con-" option. The professor stared back at us seriously, and said, "no, it's on -ation". (I have no idea how many non-native speakers there might have been in the class. Possibly very many, but I imagine some of those who voted wrong might have been native speakers...)

One thing about English is that it is often hard to tell primary and secondary stresses apart. E.g. autism has both a primary stress, on its first syllable, and a secondary stress, on its secondary stress.

I think for me, it's much harder to identify secondary stress.

Ser wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:54 pm I guess I now feel what my classmates in a linguistics class once felt when we were asked about where the primary stress was in "conversation", and about 60% or 70% of the class chose the "con-" option. The professor stared back at us seriously, and said, "no, it's on -ation". (I have no idea how many non-native speakers there might have been in the class. Possibly very many, but I imagine some of those who voted wrong might have been native speakers...)

This is fascinating. I wonder what is happening in these students' minds. Are they hearing "a sort of stress" on the first syllable and then just stopping their analysis there? Or are they dividing words into paradigms like "unstressed prefix vs no unstressed prefix" or "iambic/trochaic vs dactylic/anapaestic."

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:25 am

Ser wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:54 pm I guess I now feel what my classmates in a linguistics class once felt when we were asked about where the primary stress was in "conversation", and about 60% or 70% of the class chose the "con-" option. The professor stared back at us seriously, and said, "no, it's on -ation". (I have no idea how many non-native speakers there might have been in the class. Possibly very many, but I imagine some of those who voted wrong might have been native speakers...)

This is fascinating. I wonder what is happening in these students' minds. Are they hearing "a sort of stress" on the first syllable and then just stopping their analysis there? Or are they dividing words into paradigms like "unstressed prefix vs no unstressed prefix" or "iambic/trochaic vs dactylic/anapaestic."

Native speaker, and when spoken in isolation it's not obvious to me that the stress on the a is stronger than the stress on con (by contrast, the difference seems obvious to me with "autism"). But it's definitely the a that attracts phrasal pitch accents, gets lengthened for emphasis, and such.

How do you pronounce you in "I love you", "He gives you a present", etc? Is it informal to reduce it? Also, Is pronoun reduced after a preposition in "I'm doing this for you" or "I'm sleeping with her"?

i think the only word that would get reducd in "I love you" is the "I". Reduction in the second sentence is probably not that common due to the following vowel, since /jə.ə/ is awkward. But at the very least, the /h/ would be gone from "him" and "her", and the /ð/ from "them".