Zompist Bboard Again

Posted: **Tue May 21, 2019 8:50 pm**

Pabappa wrote: ↑Mon May 20, 2019 5:33 pm On that, how do you say the Lord's Prayer? Is it common for worshippers to change the pronoun /tu/ in e.g. "santificado sea tu nombre" to fit the local usage?

But rules like using the tu-form for the divinity are not uncommon. For example, the Russian rule used to be that one used the tu-form for God and the tsar. And I learnt, 'Our father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.' (Please excuse my punctuation; we were taught it verbally.)

Posted: **Tue May 21, 2019 9:30 pm**

Pabappa wrote: ↑Mon May 20, 2019 5:33 pmIs it common for worshippers to change the pronoun /tu/ in e.g. "santificado sea tu nombre" to fit the local usage?

I don't think so. That's the possessive pronoun, which is the same (i.e. tu) even in areas where people use vos instead of tú.

Posted: **Tue May 21, 2019 10:34 pm**

At least among Catholics, in languages that have a t/v split for second person pronouns, one uses tu-forms because you are supposed to have a close and personal connection to God. Or at least that's what I was taught by my parents and in Catechism class when I was growing up with the religion. I can't speak for other forms of Christianity but it seems there are other sects that do similarly.

Posted: **Tue May 21, 2019 11:06 pm**

linguistcat wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 10:34 pm At least among Catholics, in languages that have a t/v split for second person pronouns, one uses tu-forms because you are supposed to have a close and personal connection to God. Or at least that's what I was taught by my parents and in Catechism class when I was growing up with the religion.

I think that's their post-rationalization. The T/V distinction appeared long after the use of tu for God was codified in the Bible.

Posted: **Wed May 22, 2019 2:07 am**

Indeed, the usage exists even in languages without a T/V distinction. English speakers used "thou" to refer to God long after "you" took over as a second person singular pronoun. No one would suggest that English speakers say "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done" because they are best bros with the almighty.

Posted: **Wed May 22, 2019 5:07 am**

More on olives, now that I'm back to work and have access to the OED:

the OED wrote: a. The small oval fruit (a drupe) of Olea europaea var. europaea, usually green when unripe and purple or black when ripe, with a hard stone and a bitter pulp, which yields abundant oil and is also eaten pickled either ripe or unripe. Cf. olive oil n. and int., oil of olives n. at sense A. 2b.Recorded earliest in oil of olives n. at sense A. 2b.queen olive: see queen n. Compounds 2.
[...]
1555 R. Eden tr. Peter Martyr of Angleria Decades of Newe Worlde f. 209v They are for the most part of the colour of an olyue.

the OED wrote:a. An easily tanned or yellowish-brown skin colouring.
1602 J. Brereton Briefe Relation Discouerie Virginia 10 These people..so for shape of bodie and louely fauour, I thinke they excell all the people of America; of stature much higher than we; of complexion or colour, much like a darke Oliue.
1662 J. Davies tr. A. Olearius Voy. & Trav. Ambassadors 287 A full face; but yellowish or inclining to an Olive.
a1687 C. Cotton Poems (1689) 289 Let her Complexion swart, or Tawny be, A Twilight Olive, or a Mid-night Ebony.
1707 J. Addison Rosamond ii. 16 My Stomach swells with secret Spight, To see my fickle, faithless Knight, With upright Gesture, goodly Mein, Face of Olive, Coat of Green.
1837 J. G. Lockhart Mem. Life Scott viii Charlotte Margaret Carpenter..was rich in personal attractions..a complexion of the clearest and lightest olive.
1884 W. C. Smith Kildrostan 92 The sun has dyed Her cheek with olive.
1910 Encycl. Brit. I. 88/1 Northwards (Tigré, Lasta) it is a pale olive, and here even fair complexions are seen. Southwards (Shoa, Kobbu, Amuru) a decided chocolate and almost sooty black is the rule.
1963 Current Anthropol. Oct. 383/1 Their skin color varies from dark coffee or a light chocolate shade to an olive or slightly bronzed white.
1985 P. Di Filippo Stone Lives in B. Sterling Mirrorshades (1986) 185 Her skin was a pellucid olive.

the OED wrote: 2. Of an easily tanned or yellowish-brown skin colouring.
1616 T. Coryate Traveller for Eng. Wits 21 Hee is of a complexion neither white nor blacke..I know not how to expresse it with a more expressive or significant epitheton then Oliue, an Oliue colour his face presenteth.
1634 T. Herbert Relation Some Yeares Trauaile 48 The Inhabitants are of an Oliue colour.
1713 J. Addison in Guardian 16 July 2/1 You must know I am a famous Olive Beauty.
1774 O. Goldsmith Hist. Earth II. 224 Indians are of an olive colour, and, in the more southern parts, quite black.
1805 R. Southey Madoc ii. ii. 199 Her cotton vest..leaves her olive arms Bare in their beauty.
1859 All Year Round xi. 201 His face is not strictly handsome..a clear olive complexion..and regular features do not of themselves imply anything specially attractive.
1894 A. Conan Doyle Mem. Sherlock Holmes 218 A beautiful olive complexion.
1915 F. Hodgson Burnett Lost Prince xix. 178 She is five feet seven, has black hair, a nose with a high bridge, her eyebrows are black and almost meet across it, she has a pale olive skin and holds her head proudly.
1940 Jrnl. Negro Educ. Oct. 608/1 The Creoles of olive complexion live mostly in the northern section of the city in the seventh ward.
1991 Hair's How No. 34. 809/2 With her dark flashing eyes and olive complexion, the Italian lady doesn't need much make-up.
2001 National Post (Canada) 5 June b2/1 He was almost pan-racial, with his full lips and olive skin.

Posted: **Wed May 22, 2019 7:45 am**

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2019 2:07 am Indeed, the usage exists even in languages without a T/V distinction. English speakers used "thou" to refer to God long after "you" took over as a second person singular pronoun. No one would suggest that English speakers say "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done" because they are best bros with the almighty.

...actually a lot of people do indeed believe that to be the reason why thee/thou was used for God in older English translations. (I'm not sure I'm convinced--it's pretty obviously there to preserve the singular/plural distinction of the original texts--but this is a pretty common explanation I've heard many times)

Posted: **Wed May 22, 2019 10:40 am**

alynnidalar wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2019 7:45 am
Moose-tache wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2019 2:07 am Indeed, the usage exists even in languages without a T/V distinction. English speakers used "thou" to refer to God long after "you" took over as a second person singular pronoun. No one would suggest that English speakers say "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done" because they are best bros with the almighty.
...actually a lot of people do indeed believe that to be the reason why thee/thou was used for God in older English translations. (I'm not sure I'm convinced--it's pretty obviously there to preserve the singular/plural distinction of the original texts--but this is a pretty common explanation I've heard many times)

I'm not sure the KJV-only crowd would express it in quite those terms, but yeah, that's definitely the underlying sentiment. (Though conversely I think there's also some belief in some circles that "thou" is a more reverent form of address.)

Posted: **Wed May 22, 2019 10:55 am**

Zaarin wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2019 10:40 am(Though conversely I think there's also some belief in some circles that "thou" is a more reverent form of address.)

That was exactly what I thought growing up: I assumed thou was an archaic polite form comparable to (Peninsular) Spanish Usted because that's how we addressed God and I was very surprised when we learned the Lord's Prayer in Spanish and I was expected to use tú.

Posted: **Wed May 22, 2019 11:17 am**

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2019 10:55 am
Zaarin wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2019 10:40 am(Though conversely I think there's also some belief in some circles that "thou" is a more reverent form of address.)
That was exactly what I thought growing up: I assumed thou was an archaic polite form comparable to (Peninsular) Spanish Usted because that's how we addressed God and I was very surprised when we learned the Lord's Prayer in Spanish and I was expected to use tú.

I'm pretty sure I've told you this before, but that's what happened to me, too, except with Malayalam where it sounded downright rude like I had to treat God like some worthless, pesky little twerp or something.

Posted: **Wed May 22, 2019 11:30 am**

zompist wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 11:06 pm
linguistcat wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 10:34 pm At least among Catholics, in languages that have a t/v split for second person pronouns, one uses tu-forms because you are supposed to have a close and personal connection to God. Or at least that's what I was taught by my parents and in Catechism class when I was growing up with the religion.
I think that's their post-rationalization. The T/V distinction appeared long after the use of tu for God was codified in the Bible.

In French, it is, actually, a matter of doctrine. Before Vatican II, the Lord's Prayer was "Notre Père qui êtes aux cieux, que votre volonté soit faite."
Oh, and they never got around to changing the Hail Mary, so French Catholics use tu for God and vous for the Virgin Mary.
I don't know if that means we're supposed to be best pals with God but a little uncomfortable around His mother?

Posted: **Wed May 22, 2019 11:44 am**

Pabappa wrote: ↑Mon May 20, 2019 5:33 pm
Ser wrote: ↑Sat May 18, 2019 3:18 pm Tú is not used much. We're familiar with it because much of the media and the Internet uses it, since much of it is made in Mexico or Colombia and other such tú-using countries, or is dubbed in Peru or the like. As far as things made in El Salvador go, you can hear it and see it in advertisements and music. When people meet somebody from a tú-using country it's common for us to try to use tú as well.
On that, how do you say the Lord's Prayer? Is it common for worshippers to change the pronoun /tu/ in e.g. "santificado sea tu nombre" to fit the local usage?

No, we use tú for that too (Vijay is right about the possessive pronouns in it, but you can see this in the Lord's Prayer when we use the tú-imperatives perdona 'forgive', no nos dejes 'do not let us...' and líbranos 'deliver us'). In Catholicism these prayers are officially standardized, and Protestants haven't changed the term of address out of cultural inertia I guess.

Richard W wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 8:50 pmBut rules like using the tu-form for the divinity are not uncommon. For example, the Russian rule used to be that one used the tu-form for God and the tsar. And I learnt, 'Our father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.' (Please excuse my punctuation; we were taught it verbally.)

The thing about Salvadoran Spanish is that we kind of have two T-forms, tú and vos. That's what Pabappa was asking about.

Posted: **Wed May 22, 2019 4:28 pm**

Ars Lande wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2019 11:30 am
zompist wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 11:06 pmI think that's their post-rationalization. The T/V distinction appeared long after the use of tu for God was codified in the Bible.
In French, it is, actually, a matter of doctrine. Before Vatican II, the Lord's Prayer was "Notre Père qui êtes aux cieux, que votre volonté soit faite."

Doctrine changes. Before you had that French version, you had "Pater noster, quī es in caelīs, sanctificētur nōmen tuum, adveniat regnum tuum, fīat voluntās tua, sīcut in caelō, et in terrā." (And the Greek bible of course uses σύ.)

Posted: **Wed May 22, 2019 4:45 pm**

I just remembered this, which is a Malayalam movie song version of the Lord's Prayer. The lyrics are a bit different from all other versions of this prayer that I'm aware of in Malayalam. One of the ways that it's different is that it actually addresses God slightly more formally. At the same time, it isn't consistent about this and slips into the usual informality at 1:07 (the second line in the video description). Though to be fair, the language in other Malayalam versions of the Lord's Prayer is also formal (or at least indirect - all the commands are turned into 'oh you/your kingdom should ______!' but this is a pretty common way of making a request in Malayalam) aside from the odd use of the informal pronoun.

Posted: **Wed May 22, 2019 4:46 pm**

Ars Lande wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2019 5:07 am More on olives, now that I'm back to work and have access to the OED:

the OED wrote: 1602 J. Brereton Briefe Relation Discouerie Virginia 10 These people..so for shape of bodie and louely fauour, I thinke they excell all the people of America; of stature much higher than we; of complexion or colour, much like a darke Oliue.
1662 J. Davies tr. A. Olearius Voy. & Trav. Ambassadors 287 A full face; but yellowish or inclining to an Olive.
a1687 C. Cotton Poems (1689) 289 Let her Complexion swart, or Tawny be, A Twilight Olive, or a Mid-night Ebony.

Thanks for providing the cites! I've highlighted the 17th century ones that don't just use "olive" as a color. These make it pretty clear BTW that the frame of reference was the fruit, not the oil or the wood.

The first and third definitely sound like a ripe olive, i.e. not green. The third contrasts it with black, which leaves us with a reasonable though not very well specified brown. The second is harder to interpret, but suggests something lighter. It's also interesting that the early references suggest a much darker coloration than the modern idea of "Mediterranean people".

I still find it weird, especially if you look at olives like these. On the other hands, these olives aren't a stretch at all.

Posted: **Wed May 22, 2019 5:10 pm**

No problem. I can PM you the whole results if you like, there might have been something I missed.

It's interesting, and a little unexpected too, that the earliest references we found so far refer to Native Americans, not people of Mediterranean descent.

I wonder if they all ultimately borrowed the simile from the same source (Pigafetta?). It's intriguing that Bereton picked that particular comparison -- how familiar with olives were 16th century Englishmen?

Posted: **Wed May 22, 2019 6:57 pm**

linguistcat wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 10:34 pmAt least among Catholics, in languages that have a t/v split for second person pronouns, one uses tu-forms because you are supposed to have a close and personal connection to God. Or at least that's what I was taught by my parents and in Catechism class when I was growing up with the religion. I can't speak for other forms of Christianity but it seems there are other sects that do similarly.

That really surprises me. I always assumed you would use the most formal means of address possible in prayer. After all, you wouldn't address your king as tu unless you wanted to tortured and executed as brutally as Medieval technology allowed.

Posted: **Wed May 22, 2019 7:19 pm**

malloc wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2019 6:57 pm
linguistcat wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 10:34 pmAt least among Catholics, in languages that have a t/v split for second person pronouns, one uses tu-forms because you are supposed to have a close and personal connection to God. Or at least that's what I was taught by my parents and in Catechism class when I was growing up with the religion. I can't speak for other forms of Christianity but it seems there are other sects that do similarly.
That really surprises me. I always assumed you would use the most formal means of address possible in prayer. After all, you wouldn't address your king as tu unless you wanted to tortured and executed as brutally as Medieval technology allowed.

But God is different from one's sovereign - one's sovereign is normally not someone one is supposed to be close to and personal with, whereas God is someone you are supposed to be able to pray to directly, even though in Catholicism there is also praying to saints in lieu of God.

Posted: **Thu May 23, 2019 6:34 am**

I think the reason the idea of using informal pronouns to address God sounds odd to Modern English speakers is because the traditional forms of the liturgy in English have always used "thou", all the way from when English first acquired the t/v-distinction, through the time "thou" became deprecated in normal conversation, to the present day where "you" is near universal. As a result of the dominance of "you", "thou" has actually undergone a strange kind of circle shift, where the fact that to most people it is essentially restricted to "old-fashioned" styles (Shakespeare, the Book of Common Prayer and the like) that is has now become to an extent more "formal" than "you", which is why in modern versions of the liturgy (such as Common Worship) "you" is generally substituted, because pragmatics of "thou" and the intended theological expression don't match anymore.

Posted: **Thu May 23, 2019 9:05 am**

How do a language with neither oblique relativization nor applicative voice relativize on the non-subject?
Using oblique relativization is simple.

The child-ren for whom I read a book.: DEF child-PL BEN REL 1SG read INDEF book

Using applicative is roundabout but possible.

Anak yang ku-baca-kan buku.: child REL 1SG.PASS-read-BEN.APPL book

But how it's done in Basque, for example.

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