Zompist Bboard Again

Ryusenshi wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:46 pm crimson

Ends with [ɪmzn̩] or [ɪmzən]--the sounds [n̩] and [ən] aren't very distinct for me, so I have trouble figuring out which is a better representation of my usual pronunciation. It feels at least like "crimson" is not quite as likely to have a phonetic vowel before the final [n] as a word ending in /ndən/ such as tendon or abandon.

The [ɪ] is probably nasalized in some way, but that isn't noticeable to me.

starts with [kʰɹ]~[kɹ̥]~ whatever the exact realization of /kr/ is

Ryusenshi wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:46 pmFor people with the LOT / CLOTH split: God

That word has been noticed to have an irregular /ɔ/ [ɔ] among some Christian American speakers, even among those with the cot-caught merger (i.e. people who only have the /ɔ/-/ɑ/ contrast before /ɹ/ (born-barn) and maybe /n/ (dawn-Don)). (Maybe this why you're asking this question in the first place though...)


Meanwhile, I'd like to start a petition to rename the cot-caught merger to something else. Who ever says the word "cot" these days anyway? Let's call it the bot-bought merger, now that we have this beautiful new word "bot". If the word "bot" is too new to name a historical merger, then maybe: the stock-stalk merger.

Ser wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:18 am

Ryusenshi wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:46 pmFor people with the LOT / CLOTH split: God

That word has been noticed to have an irregular /ɔ/ [ɔ] among some Christian American speakers, even among those with the cot-caught merger (i.e. people who only have the /ɔ/-/ɑ/ contrast before /ɹ/ (born-barn) and maybe /n/ (dawn-Don)). (Maybe this why you're asking this question in the first place though...

I personally pronounce God with /ɔ/ [ɒ] when I feel like making it especially clear that I am taking the Lord's name in vain or am being simply sarcastic.

Ryusenshi wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:46 pm For people with the LOT / CLOTH split: God

/gɒd/, which is particularly notable because my CLOTH vowel (General American /ɔ/) is normally /ɑ/. (I live in Michigan and have most of the Northern Cities Vowel Shift--my LOT is /a/)

I've noticed this oddity before--people from my particular church background, in this part of the US (Inland North speakers), almost exclusively pronounce "God/god" with /ɒ/, despite almost everyone else in the area pronouncing it /gɑd/. I assume it's due to some historical factor (the churches in Michigan were largely founded by Canadians in the 1800s, I believe, and there's a lot of contact with churches in New England) but I don't know for sure.

Additional fun fact: my mother, sister, and I all pronounce gospel with /a/ (as expected for someone with the NCVS). My father and other sister pronounce it with either /ɑ/ or /ɒ/ (I'm not sure exactly which), despite also having the NCVS. This is the only word we've noticed it with, so I assume my dad somehow picked up the pronunciation from a non-NCVS speaker, and then my sister picked it up from him. Language is weird, y'all.

Thank you everyone. For crimson, I wanted to know if the s was pronounced /s/ or /z/, since I've heard it both ways.

For God, I've heard Americans saying [gɒːd] when I would have expected [ɡɑːd]; I have also noticed that oh my Gawd is much more common than oh my Gahd. So, I thought that it may be an unexpected CLOTH word. Apparently, it's even more complicated than that.

I should note that my own THOUGHT/CLOTH vowel is [ɒ], even though some people here such as my mother (a native of Kenosha) have [ɑ] (while PALM/LOT is [a]), so "gawd" here with [ɒ] is not necessarily as special as it is for alynnidalar. Even then, "gawd" with [ɒ] is not a normal CLOTH word because it is interchangeable with "god" with [a], the only difference being the attitude it communicates on the part of the speaker.

Estav wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:35 pm resolutely
logarithm
Iran
Iranian
nobly
said to himself

[ˌɻʷe̞zəˈɫʉˑt’ ̚lɪi̯]
[ˈlɔgəˌɻʷɪðᵊm]
[ɪˈɻʷaːn]
[ɪˈɻʷæi̯nɪi̯ᵊn]
[nɔʉ̟̯blɪi̯]
[ˈse̞t’ ̚tʊw(h)ɪmˌsɛɫf]

Estav wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:35 pm resolutely
logarithm
Iran
Iranian
nobly
said to himself

/rezəluwtlɨj/ [rɛzɫ̩ʉwˀtɫi]
/logəriðəm/ [ɫɔgəɹɪðm̩]
/ərɑn/ [əɹɑn]
/ərejnɨjɨn/ [əɹejnijɪn]
/nəwblɨj/ [nəwbɫi]
/sed tə himself/ [sɛdd̥ə(ɦ)ɪmsɛɫf]

resolutely: /ˌrɛzəˈlutli/ [ˌʁʷɜːzəːˈʟ̞uʔɰi(ː)]
logarithm: /ˈlɑɡəˌrɪðəm/ [ˈʟ̞aːɡʁ̩ːˌʁɘːðə̃(ː)m]
Iran: /aɪˈræn/ [əːe̯ˈʁɛ̃(ː)(n)]
Iranian: /aɪˈreɪnjən/ [əːe̯ˈʁẽːnjɘ̃(ː)(n)]
nobly: /ˈnoʊbli/ [ˈnoːbɰi(ː)]
said to himself: /ˈsɛdtuəmˌsɛlf/ [ˈsɜːtːʉːə̃ːmˌsɜɤ̯f]

Thanks for the replies! I have a few followup questions. I probably should have included "resolute" also in the initial post; if any of you want to add a transcription for it, please mark the stress so I can see if it is different from the stress in the adverb. I was wondering whether anyone would have /ɑ/ in Iranian, which I have heard, but everyone so far has FACE (which I also use there).

Darren wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:56 pm [ˌɻʷe̞zəˈɫʉˑt’ ̚lɪi̯]
[ˈlɔgəˌɻʷɪðᵊm]
[ɪˈɻʷaːn]
[ɪˈɻʷæi̯nɪi̯ᵊn]
[nɔʉ̟̯blɪi̯]
[ˈse̞t’ ̚tʊw(h)ɪmˌsɛɫf]

• Is this an Australian accent?
• What does ᵊ represent? I'm familiar with it as a dictionary symbol used by J.C. Wells as shorthand to mark positions where a vocalic schwa phone is possible, but not always present. I'm not familiar with its meaning as an official IPA symbol: I found a Wikipedia article that says it "is used to modify the preceding consonant to have a mid central vowel release", but there's no citation. Should I interpret it here as an extra-short schwa (equivalent to [ə̆])?
• What is the pattern to the distribution of dark [ɫ] and clear [l] in your accent? I'm a bit surprised to see dark ɫ in onset of the stressed syllable in resolutely, but not in the onset of the first syllable of logarithm.

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:22 pm /rezəluwtlɨj/ [rɛzɫ̩ʉwˀtɫi]

Do you have penult stress?

Estav wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:22 pm Thanks for the replies! I have a few followup questions. I probably should have included "resolute" also in the initial post; if any of you want to add a transcription for it, please mark the stress so I can see if it is different from the stress in the adverb. I was wondering whether anyone would have /ɑ/ in Iranian, which I have heard, but everyone so far has FACE (which I also use there).

Darren wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:56 pm [ˌɻʷe̞zəˈɫʉˑt’ ̚lɪi̯]
[ˈlɔgəˌɻʷɪðᵊm]
[ɪˈɻʷaːn]
[ɪˈɻʷæi̯nɪi̯ᵊn]
[nɔʉ̟̯blɪi̯]
[ˈse̞t’ ̚tʊw(h)ɪmˌsɛɫf]

• Is this an Australian accent?
• What does ᵊ represent? I'm familiar with it as a dictionary symbol used by J.C. Wells as shorthand to mark positions where a vocalic schwa phone is possible, but not always present. I'm not familiar with its meaning as an official IPA symbol: I found a Wikipedia article that says it "is used to modify the preceding consonant to have a mid central vowel release", but there's no citation. Should I interpret it here as an extra-short schwa (equivalent to [ə̆])?
• What is the pattern to the distribution of dark [ɫ] and clear [l] in your accent? I'm a bit surprised to see dark ɫ in onset of the stressed syllable in resolutely, but not in the onset of the first syllable of logarithm.

Yes, this is an Australian accent; the /ᵊ/ represents a syllabic consonant which often surfaces as a preceding short [ə̆]. I'm really not sure how to analyse it; in Australian English, sort of schwa-offglides or syllabic consonants occur after vowels as well (possibly phonemically) and I really can't tell whether or not they're separate syllables. Interpreting it as [ə] or syllabicism is fine. The reason there's [ɫ] in "resolutely" is because it's following a schwa. The velarisation/darkness isn't as strong as it is in the coda, but it is definitely darker than "logarithm." I probably should have been consistent and used [ᵊ] ([ˌɻʷe̞zᵊˈɫʉˑt’ ̚lɪi̯]).

Darren wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:33 pm The reason there's [ɫ] in "resolutely" is because it's following a schwa. The velarisation/darkness isn't as strong as it is in the coda, but it is definitely darker than "logarithm." I probably should have been consistent and used [ᵊ] ([ˌɻʷe̞zᵊˈɫʉˑt’ ̚lɪi̯]).

Interesting, I hadn't even thought about the schwa before the /l/ in "resolutely". I don't think post-schwa l is darkened before a stressed syllable in my accent (although my light and dark l are not very distinct, so it's not too easy to tell). So would you have a definite distinction between [ˈnɔʉ̟̯blɪi̯] with light l and [ˈglɔʉ̟̯bᵊɫɪi̯] with dark l at the end?

Estav wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:34 pm

Darren wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:33 pm The reason there's [ɫ] in "resolutely" is because it's following a schwa. The velarisation/darkness isn't as strong as it is in the coda, but it is definitely darker than "logarithm." I probably should have been consistent and used [ᵊ] ([ˌɻʷe̞zᵊˈɫʉˑt’ ̚lɪi̯]).

Interesting, I hadn't even thought about the schwa before the /l/ in "resolutely". I don't think post-schwa l is darkened before a stressed syllable in my accent (although my light and dark l are not very distinct, so it's not too easy to tell). So would you have a definite distinction between [ˈnɔʉ̟̯blɪi̯] with light l and [ˈglɔʉ̟̯bᵊɫɪi̯] with dark l at the end?

Yes, the distinction is more than just the schwa.

Darren wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:56 pm

Estav wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:35 pm resolutely
logarithm
Iran
Iranian
nobly
said to himself

[ˌɻʷe̞zəˈɫʉˑt’ ̚lɪi̯]
[ˈlɔgəˌɻʷɪðᵊm]
[ɪˈɻʷaːn]
[ɪˈɻʷæi̯nɪi̯ᵊn]
[nɔʉ̟̯blɪi̯]
[ˈse̞t’ ̚tʊw(h)ɪmˌsɛɫf]

I have an Australian accent as well (although people often tell me I sound South African), and I was surprised to see how close my pronunciation of these words was to Darren’s. Here’s my pronunciation of these words (plus resolute):

[ˈɻʷe̞zəˌɫʉːʔtʰ]~[ˌɻʷe̞zəˈɫʉːʔtʰ] (both stress patterns seem to occur)
[ˌɻʷe̞zəˈɫʉːʔt͡ɬiː]
[ˈɫɔgəˌɻʷɪðə̆m̩]
[ɪˈɻʷɑːn]
[ɪˈɻʷɑːniˌjən] (previously with [-æ͡i-], but I started to use [-ɑ-] a couple of months ago after I heard that pronunciation and realised it made much more sense)
[ˈnɞ̟͡ʉbliˑ]
[ˈse̞d̚tʰə̆ɪmˌse̞(ɰ~w)f]~[ˈse̞d̚tʰəhɪmˌse̞(ɰ~w)f] (that semivowel in the last syllable is unspecified for rounding and so is in free variation between ɰ~w)

(Note: this is one of the first times I’ve tried to phonetically transcribe my own speech, so there could be some small inaccuracies in the above transcriptions)

Estav wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:22 pm Do you have penult stress?

/ˌrezəˈluwtlɨj/
/ˈlogəˌriðəm/
/əˈrɑn/
/əˈrejnɨjɨn/
/ˈnəwblɨj/
/ˈsed t(ə|uw) (h)imˈself/
I don't know where 'resolute' is stressed - maybe initially?

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:05 pm

Darren wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:56 pm

Estav wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:35 pm resolutely
logarithm
Iran
Iranian
nobly
said to himself

[ˌɻʷe̞zəˈɫʉˑt’ ̚lɪi̯]
[ˈlɔgəˌɻʷɪðᵊm]
[ɪˈɻʷaːn]
[ɪˈɻʷæi̯nɪi̯ᵊn]
[nɔʉ̟̯blɪi̯]
[ˈse̞t’ ̚tʊw(h)ɪmˌsɛɫf]

I have an Australian accent as well (although people often tell me I sound South African), and I was surprised to see how close my pronunciation of these words was to Darren’s. Here’s my pronunciation of these words (plus resolute):

[ˈɻʷe̞zəˌɫʉːʔtʰ]~[ˌɻʷe̞zəˈɫʉːʔtʰ] (both stress patterns seem to occur)
[ˌɻʷe̞zəˈɫʉːʔt͡ɬiː]
[ˈɫɔgəˌɻʷɪðə̆m̩]
[ɪˈɻʷɑːn]
[ɪˈɻʷɑːniˌjən] (previously with [-æ͡i-], but I started to use [-ɑ-] a couple of months ago after I heard that pronunciation and realised it made much more sense)
[ˈnɞ̟͡ʉbliˑ]
[ˈse̞d̚tʰə̆ɪmˌse̞(ɰ~w)f]~[ˈse̞d̚tʰəhɪmˌse̞(ɰ~w)f] (that semivowel in the last syllable is unspecified for rounding and so is in free variation between ɰ~w)

(Note: this is one of the first times I’ve tried to phonetically transcribe my own speech, so there could be some small inaccuracies in the above transcriptions)

Two things immediately stand out (not necessarily as wrong, just unusual). Most English dialects don't aspirate word-final /t/, especially if it's glottalised. Also, the [t͡ɬ] thing is unusual, although it makes sense. I don't think I've ever seen it in a description of an English dialect.

Also,
resolute [ˌɻʷe̞zᵊˈɫʉˑt’ ̚], although [ˈɻʷe̞zᵊˌɫʉˑt’ ̚] sounds pretty normal as well.

Darren wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:20 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:05 pm

Darren wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:56 pm

[ˌɻʷe̞zəˈɫʉˑt’ ̚lɪi̯]
[ˈlɔgəˌɻʷɪðᵊm]
[ɪˈɻʷaːn]
[ɪˈɻʷæi̯nɪi̯ᵊn]
[nɔʉ̟̯blɪi̯]
[ˈse̞t’ ̚tʊw(h)ɪmˌsɛɫf]

I have an Australian accent as well (although people often tell me I sound South African), and I was surprised to see how close my pronunciation of these words was to Darren’s. Here’s my pronunciation of these words (plus resolute):

[ˈɻʷe̞zəˌɫʉːʔtʰ]~[ˌɻʷe̞zəˈɫʉːʔtʰ] (both stress patterns seem to occur)
[ˌɻʷe̞zəˈɫʉːʔt͡ɬiː]
[ˈɫɔgəˌɻʷɪðə̆m̩]
[ɪˈɻʷɑːn]
[ɪˈɻʷɑːniˌjən] (previously with [-æ͡i-], but I started to use [-ɑ-] a couple of months ago after I heard that pronunciation and realised it made much more sense)
[ˈnɞ̟͡ʉbliˑ]
[ˈse̞d̚tʰə̆ɪmˌse̞(ɰ~w)f]~[ˈse̞d̚tʰəhɪmˌse̞(ɰ~w)f] (that semivowel in the last syllable is unspecified for rounding and so is in free variation between ɰ~w)

(Note: this is one of the first times I’ve tried to phonetically transcribe my own speech, so there could be some small inaccuracies in the above transcriptions)

Two things immediately stand out (not necessarily as wrong, just unusual). Most English dialects don't aspirate word-final /t/, especially if it's glottalised. Also, the [t͡ɬ] thing is unusual, although it makes sense. I don't think I've ever seen it in a description of an English dialect.

Also,
resolute [ˌɻʷe̞zᵊˈɫʉˑt’ ̚], although [ˈɻʷe̞zᵊˌɫʉˑt’ ̚] sounds pretty normal as well.

Yeah, I suppose those are pretty unusual, although I’ve never really thought of those phonetic details that way. One other unusual thing I forgot: my ‘aspiration’ for /t/ is actually mostly affrication, so resolute and said to himself should really be [ˈɻʷe̞zəˌɫʉːʔtˢʰ]~[ˌɻʷe̞zəˈɫʉːʔtˢʰ] and [ˈse̞d̚tˢə̆ɪmˌse̞(ɰ~w)f]~[ˈse̞d̚tˢəhɪmˌse̞(ɰ~w)f].

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:35 am Yeah, I suppose those are pretty unusual. One other unusual thing I forgot: my ‘aspiration’ for /t/ is actually mostly affrication, so resolute and said to himself should really be [ˈɻʷe̞zəˌɫʉːʔtˢʰ]~[ˌɻʷe̞zəˈɫʉːʔtˢʰ] and [ˈse̞d̚tˢə̆ɪmˌse̞(ɰ~w)f]~[ˈse̞d̚tˢəhɪmˌse̞(ɰ~w)f].

Ah, that makes more sense.

going to
shouldn't
shouldn't've
starting to
have to
've got to
didn't
can't
won't

(Note that I mean the pronunciations you actually use.)