Zompist Bboard Again

keenir wrote: ↑Thu Feb 10, 2022 2:47 am hm. does this apply only to slavery? (if no, what else does that resting state apply to? if yes, does it only apply to Confederate-style slavery?)

Not really. At its root, "rebellion" is not a conscious process. It's a post hoc anthropomorphization of physical processes analogous to Freudian repression. As systems grow in complexity, wires get tangled. Paranoid masters see this and blow up, accusing everyone of conspiring against them. "Rebellion" is an organization of miscellaneous material grievances under the umbrella of self-defense against the master's paranoia.

keenir wrote: ↑Thu Feb 10, 2022 2:47 am I mean, I can't think of any violent uprisings in plantation-era Hawaii, for example.

It seems fairly obvious to me that workers only agree to live in such conditions as a result of violent subjugation.

keenir wrote: ↑Thu Feb 10, 2022 2:47 am Maybe it would be easier if you told us what faiths you don't oppose, so we can start from that point.
(though it seems you only oppose monotheism)

I've also peripherally criticized Confucianism, Hinduism and Buddhism. Those just didn't blow up as much.

Faith implies intellectual subordination to spiritual masters. Consider the tendency of great mystics of the past to have been hyperconservative warmongers, though this effect is not exclusively confined to religion.

You could say that, to an extent, spiritual joy is the oppression that I'm trying to free myself from. It's when you feel you are freely extending your powers that you are really playing into the hands of your masters.

In that context, I should clarify:

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:47 pm All that being said, I think you'd enjoy Nietzsche's objections to Stoicism -- and I do think Nietzsche had a point there!

Not only don't I like Stoicism, I don't like Neitzsche either. Religion is too artistic, affirmative and arrogant as opposed to being truthful for my liking. Physics is literally the only thing I like.

I'd feel almost apologetic for defying all contemporary theories that try to predict how I should feel about anything. That is, if I didn't think the 21st century tendency to imprison us all in the orbits of our traditional cultures represents a resurgence of the caste system. As long as this trend continues, I will say that I hate culture and I want to destroy it.

sadly, you keep refusing to say what you do like or approve of. either you're lying, you're trolling us, of you may want to see a therapist - though getting help for physical or psycological problems would be slavery according to you.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 4:11 am

keenir wrote: ↑Thu Feb 10, 2022 2:47 am hm. does this apply only to slavery? (if no, what else does that resting state apply to? if yes, does it only apply to Confederate-style slavery?)

Not really. At its root, "rebellion" is not a conscious process. It's a post hoc anthropomorphization of physical processes analogous to Freudian repression. As systems grow in complexity, wires get tangled. Paranoid masters see this and blow up, accusing everyone of conspiring against them. "Rebellion" is an organization of miscellaneous material grievances under the umbrella of self-defense against the master's paranoia.

so...all of existence is rebellion? ah, so you're Gnostic.

keenir wrote: ↑Thu Feb 10, 2022 2:47 am I mean, I can't think of any violent uprisings in plantation-era Hawaii, for example.

It seems fairly obvious to me that workers only agree to live in such conditions as a result of violent subjugation.

so now the workers there (mostly from Asian nations) are agreeing to live in those conditions - and they didn't revolt. between this and some of your comments below, I'm starting to smell something funny from you.

keenir wrote: ↑Thu Feb 10, 2022 2:47 am Maybe it would be easier if you told us what faiths you don't oppose, so we can start from that point.
(though it seems you only oppose monotheism)

I've also peripherally criticized Confucianism, Hinduism and Buddhism. Those just didn't blow up as much.

history argues otherwise...just look at the history of those faiths.

Faith implies intellectual subordination to spiritual masters.

as Heimdall once said to Thor, if thats the case then "You're doing it wrong."

You could say that, to an extent, spiritual joy is the oppression that I'm trying to free myself from. It's when you feel you are freely extending your powers that you are really playing into the hands of your masters.

obviously you should stop trying to be happy.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:47 pm All that being said, I think you'd enjoy Nietzsche's objections to Stoicism -- and I do think Nietzsche had a point there!

Not only don't I like Stoicism, I don't like Neitzsche either. Religion is too artistic, affirmative and arrogant as opposed to being truthful for my liking. Physics is literally the only thing I like.

I'd feel almost apologetic for defying all contemporary theories that try to predict how I should feel about anything. That is, if I didn't think the 21st century tendency to imprison us all in the orbits of our traditional cultures

???

represents a resurgence of the caste system. As long as this trend continues, I will say that I hate culture and I want to destroy it.

So in other words, you don't like anything.

In that case, the solution is simple: bury yourself in work, avoid interacting with people, and don't take holidays off.

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:17 pm sadly, you keep refusing to say what you do like or approve of.

I like physics and freedom struggles. Now it feels like you're not even reading my posts.

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:17 pm either you're lying, you're trolling us, of you may want to see a therapist - though getting help for physical or psycological problems would be slavery according to you.

Medicine should be a matter of last resort. If everyone is using it just to get by, something else is wrong.

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:17 pm so...all of existence is rebellion? ah, so you're Gnostic.

Not all existence. Only social existence under a master-slave relationship.

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:17 pm so now the workers there (mostly from Asian nations) are agreeing to live in those conditions - and they didn't revolt. between this and some of your comments below, I'm starting to smell something funny from you.

Let me see if I understand you right: You think that if someone is violently subjugated, that implies they agreed without revolt.

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:17 pm history argues otherwise...just look at the history of those faiths.

Those discussions didn't blow up as much on the ZBB forum.

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:17 pm as Heimdall once said to Thor, if thats the case then "You're doing it wrong."

The alternative is that you are creating your own religion. If that's the case, there might be something seriously wrong with you.

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:17 pm obviously you should stop trying to be happy.

Not at all:

3. I think the only genuine happiness is the misery that comes from striving after freedom for everyone. This is not incompatible with traditional schools of thought considering it's the misery and the triumph of Christ on the Cross. (And the worst and most superficial kind of "happiness" is the kind that comes from creating unnecessary suffering to try and feel the triumph of Christ on the Cross.)

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:17 pm So in other words, you don't like anything.

Are you saying that physics is a form of mystical nothingness? Eg. Watch the Geometrical Anatomy of Theoretical Physics playlist on YouTube.

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:17 pm In that case, the solution is simple: bury yourself in work, avoid interacting with people, and don't take holidays off.

Again:

3. I think the only genuine happiness is the misery that comes from striving after freedom for everyone. This is not incompatible with traditional schools of thought considering it's the misery and the triumph of Christ on the Cross. (And the worst and most superficial kind of "happiness" is the kind that comes from creating unnecessary suffering to try and feel the triumph of Christ on the Cross.)

PS. I also like puzzles and Zizek's old philosophy. You might need the latter to make sense of some of the things I said in this thread. Some have argued that Zizek's philosophy itself makes no sense, but if you'd like to try anyway, I recommend Absolute Recoil for the closest thing to an "application", and Less Than Nothing for the big tome of theory behind it.

PPS. Another important book if you're really keen on deciphering what I mean by "physics": https://www.pdfdrive.com/classical-econ ... 18166.html

I came back to edit some of my comments, and find you already replied - you're fast.

let me put up my editted thoughts before i reply to your new post...

rotting bones wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 4:11 am I've also peripherally criticized Confucianism, Hinduism and Buddhism. Those just didn't blow up as much.

Faith implies intellectual subordination to spiritual masters.

that, together with your comment that everything is slavery and rebellion, I can only ask: Then, why are you online? You're here, typing away, while obeying and accepting the authorities and rules of the internet and various forums.

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 6:48 pm I came back to edit some of my comments, and find you already replied - you're fast.

I'm replying from my phone and not thinking very hard.

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 6:48 pm that, together with your comment that everything is slavery and rebellion, I can only ask: Then, why are you online? You're here, typing away, while obeying and accepting the authorities and rules of the internet and various forums.

Not everything is slavery. A slave can't choose to leave, whether literally or in practice. I have left the ZBB for years on end.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:49 pm

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:17 pm sadly, you keep refusing to say what you do like or approve of.

I like physics and freedom struggles. Now it feels like you're not even reading my posts.

i did miss where you said "i like physics"...though you never before said you liked "freedom struggles" (which requires something to struggle from - is that why you see everything as oppression and slavery?)

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:17 pm either you're lying, you're trolling us, of you may want to see a therapist - though getting help for physical or psycological problems would be slavery according to you.

Medicine should be a matter of last resort. If everyone is using it just to get by, something else is wrong.

everyone? I'm talking to you about your behavior and words.

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:17 pm so...all of existence is rebellion? ah, so you're Gnostic.

Not all existence. Only social existence under a master-slave relationship.

...which you appear to believe happens every time people interact. and also happens when people follow a religion, usually of the monotheistic sort.

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:17 pm so now the workers there (mostly from Asian nations) are agreeing to live in those conditions - and they didn't revolt. between this and some of your comments below, I'm starting to smell something funny from you.

Let me see if I understand you right: You think that if someone is violently subjugated, that implies they agreed without revolt.

You said all the Abrahamic faiths are oppression from which slaves frequently revolt. Then you said the revolts rarely happen under Confucianism(sp) and Buddhism, so I asked you why Hawaii didn't have any revolts.

And now you're recently saying that if people revolt, that proves they're violently subjugated - and if they don't revolt, that proves they're violently subjugated.

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:17 pm history argues otherwise...just look at the history of those faiths.

Those discussions didn't blow up as much on the ZBB forum.

so...you hate the Abrahamic faiths because online discussions about them turn nasty?

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:17 pm as Heimdall once said to Thor, if thats the case then "You're doing it wrong."

The alternative is that you are creating your own religion. If that's the case, there might be something seriously wrong with you.

we're conworlders and conlangers - why is making a conreligion bad?

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:17 pm obviously you should stop trying to be happy.

Not at all:

3. I think the only genuine happiness is the misery that comes from striving after freedom for everyone

so...misery is happiness? That sounds like the sort of Orwellian (doublespeak?) that made 1984 famous.

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:17 pm So in other words, you don't like anything.

Are you saying that physics is a form of mystical nothingness?f.

I admit i missed where you said "i like physics"

...though thats worse than violent oppression, because there is no way to free yourself from it, ever. you must obey every second of your life, and it cares less than nothing for you.

also, there are plenty of online arguments about and involving physics blowing(ed) up...i used to have, on my old computer, which is now a paperweight, a large folder of exactly that......so clearly, by your argument above, you can't like physics either.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 7:03 pm

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 6:48 pm that, together with your comment that everything is slavery and rebellion, I can only ask: Then, why are you online? You're here, typing away, while obeying and accepting the authorities and rules of the internet and various forums.

Not everything is slavery. A slave can't choose to leave, whether literally or in practice.

well that contradicts everything else you've said, as you said slaves always want to revolt and be free - but fail to because they're oppressed.

{not sure what the difference is between "literally" and "in practice"...did you mean "in theory/principle" for the first?}

...though this reinforces my comment that physics is worse than religion and people, because you can't choose to leave - you can never ever escape.

I have left the ZBB for years on end.

when you're here, you must obey the rules. this is not a bad thing.

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 7:05 pm

rotting bones wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:49 pm

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:17 pm sadly, you keep refusing to say what you do like or approve of.

I like physics and freedom struggles. Now it feels like you're not even reading my posts.

i did miss where you said "i like physics"...though you never before said you liked "freedom struggles" (which requires something to struggle from - is that why you see everything as oppression and slavery?)

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:17 pm either you're lying, you're trolling us, of you may want to see a therapist - though getting help for physical or psycological problems would be slavery according to you.

Medicine should be a matter of last resort. If everyone is using it just to get by, something else is wrong.

everyone? I'm talking to you about your behavior and words.

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:17 pm so...all of existence is rebellion? ah, so you're Gnostic.

Not all existence. Only social existence under a master-slave relationship.

...which you appear to believe happens every time people interact. and also happens when people follow a religion, usually of the monotheistic sort.

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:17 pm so now the workers there (mostly from Asian nations) are agreeing to live in those conditions - and they didn't revolt. between this and some of your comments below, I'm starting to smell something funny from you.

Let me see if I understand you right: You think that if someone is violently subjugated, that implies they agreed without revolt.

You said all the Abrahamic faiths are oppression from which slaves frequently revolt. Then you said the revolts rarely happen under Confucianism(sp) and Buddhism, so I asked you why Hawaii didn't have any revolts.

And now you're recently saying that if people revolt, that proves they're violently subjugated - and if they don't revolt, that proves they're violently subjugated.

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:17 pm history argues otherwise...just look at the history of those faiths.

Those discussions didn't blow up as much on the ZBB forum.

so...you hate the Abrahamic faiths because online discussions about them turn nasty?

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:17 pm as Heimdall once said to Thor, if thats the case then "You're doing it wrong."

The alternative is that you are creating your own religion. If that's the case, there might be something seriously wrong with you.

we're conworlders and conlangers - why is making a conreligion bad?

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:17 pm obviously you should stop trying to be happy.

Not at all:

3. I think the only genuine happiness is the misery that comes from striving after freedom for everyone

so...misery is happiness? That sounds like the sort of Orwellian (doublespeak?) that made 1984 famous.

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:17 pm So in other words, you don't like anything.

Are you saying that physics is a form of mystical nothingness?f.

I admit i missed where you said "i like physics"

...though thats worse than violent oppression, because there is no way to free yourself from it, ever. you must obey every second of your life, and it cares less than nothing for you.

also, there are plenty of online arguments about and involving physics blowing(ed) up...i used to have, on my old computer, which is now a paperweight, a large folder of exactly that......so clearly, by your argument above, you can't like physics either.

Your newer posts rely on a whole bunch of inferences I never intended. Almost everything in this post that I didn't literally say is incorrect. You also accuse me of not saying things that I quoted myself saying, and so on. There are too many mistakes here for me to fix. By this time, I was hoping to show how my previous comments are included in my understanding of "physics".

Maybe I'll have more time day after tomorrow.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 7:16 pmYour newer posts rely on a whole bunch of inferences I never intended. Almost everything in this post that I didn't literally say is incorrect.

pretty much everything i quoted you on, is what you literally said.

You also accuse me of not saying things that I quoted myself saying,

what??

and so on. There are too many mistakes here for me to fix. By this time, I was hoping to show how my previous comments are included in my understanding of "physics".

if we're all supposed to struggle for freedom (which makes us miserable, which is a good thing you say)...how exactly do you plan to struggle against physics?

You gave me grief for not looking at a link you said is about the brand of physics that is or influences your personal views and philosophy; heres why I'm not looking at it: given your toxic views about life and the universe, I'd rather not expose my brain to that - I'm borderline unbalanced as it is.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:29 am

Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:07 am I'm more and more inclined to think that whatever good or bad happens to you is at best incidental to happiness anyway.
It's the old Stoic saw that unhappiness is a product of our opinions, and the gap between our opinions and reality.

A lot of people have horribly miserable lives even though, they are, by any objective standard, leisured, wealthy and comfortable. See most of recent mainstream literature for examples!

1. Even if I did want to be happy, I would try to want something else because I think wanting to be happy makes you unhappy like nothing else.

2. The Stoic position is that even a slave can be happy. My objection is that the happiness of slaves is part of what enables the condition of slavery to exist.

the happiness of slaves is not a factor in the perpetuation of slavery.

Though, given your argument that everyone is being violently oppressed into a slavery-type situation (lately by "culture", below), and that historically violent suppression has been done to all slaves, only demonstrates that the emotional state of slaves is not a factor in slavery.

Slaves should be unhappy and revolt against their condition.

So, the only happiness is misery, but slaves should be unhappy...does that mean slaves are the only happy people, since they are miserable; or...?


And thats another reason I take issue with your philosophy: its coming off as {appearing to be} a bit of machocism and a lot of tearing wings off flies & watching them stumble around as they bleed to death. There was an old strain of thought in child rearing, that the kid must be handled roughly and with what we'd today classify as physical and mental abuse, because as they put it back then, the kid needs to learn the world is tough.

3. I think the only genuine happiness is the misery that comes from striving after freedom for everyone. This is not incompatible with traditional schools of thought considering it's the misery and the triumph of Christ on the Cross.

...despite your hatred for Christianity.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 4:11 am

keenir wrote: ↑Thu Feb 10, 2022 2:47 am hm. does this apply only to slavery? (if no, what else does that resting state apply to? if yes, does it only apply to Confederate-style slavery?)

Not really. At its root, "rebellion" is not a conscious process. It's a post hoc anthropomorphization of physical processes analogous to Freudian repression. As systems grow in complexity, wires get tangled. Paranoid masters see this and blow up, accusing everyone of conspiring against them. "Rebellion" is an organization of miscellaneous material grievances under the umbrella of self-defense against the master's paranoia.

keenir wrote: ↑Thu Feb 10, 2022 2:47 am I mean, I can't think of any violent uprisings in plantation-era Hawaii, for example.

It seems fairly obvious to me that workers only agree to live in such conditions as a result of violent subjugation.

So which part of Hawaiian history leads you to that conclusion? the long list of immigrants? Thats like arguing that Irishmen only exist in 19th and 18th Century New England because they are {at that time} so subjugated that they relocated from their homeland to New England for the opportunity to be in such conditions [as a result of violent subjugation].

keenir wrote: ↑Thu Feb 10, 2022 2:47 am Maybe it would be easier if you told us what faiths you don't oppose, so we can start from that point.
(though it seems you only oppose monotheism)

I've also peripherally criticized Confucianism, Hinduism and Buddhism. Those just didn't blow up as much.

...which leads one to infer that you don't have much problem with beliefs that don't get argued about online....and yet you enjoy physics, which has a history rich in arguments even to this very day online.

Also it is possible to leave a household in which Christianity or Buddhism is practiced. it is not possible to leave or rebell from anything involving physics.

Faith implies intellectual subordination to spiritual masters.

Only if your search for knowledge looks exclusively in the confines of your religion.

You could say that, to an extent, spiritual joy is the oppression that I'm trying to free myself from.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:47 pm All that being said, I think you'd enjoy Nietzsche's objections to Stoicism -- and I do think Nietzsche had a point there!

Not only don't I like Stoicism, I don't like Neitzsche either. Religion is too artistic, affirmative and arrogant as opposed to being truthful for my liking. Physics is literally the only thing I like.

I'd feel almost apologetic for defying all contemporary theories that try to predict how I should feel about anything. That is, if I didn't think the 21st century tendency to imprison us all in the orbits of our traditional cultures[/quote]

you never explained that comment.

represents a resurgence of the caste system. As long as this trend continues, I will say that I hate culture and I want to destroy it.

...and never said what you'd replace culture with.

Or how.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 11:42 pm

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 2:36 pm oh i'm familiar with the sentiment and the phrase - I just don't consider it an absolute...more of one of those phrases that needs a "because..." after it.

In that case, I disagree that acceptance is a resting state. As far as I'm concerned, the resting state is rebellion, which has to be violently suppressed to produce a state of acceptance. This suppression is so violent that not only is the rebellion suppressed, but the memory of the violence is itself suppressed.

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 2:36 pm most faiths do; Stoicism isn't an outlier in holding that position.

Faiths I've opposed here previously: Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam

all monotheistic.

Rotting Bones,

I apologize if I seemed curt or angry or anything else that made you reluctant to continue posting; sometimes I don't know when I am carried away and when I'm being too forceful or cutting in my replies - I look to others to help me be aware of such things.

I looked and look forwards to more discussions with you, as I enjoy discussions with everyone in this forum.

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Feb 16, 2022 10:28 pm Rotting Bones,

I apologize if I seemed curt or angry or anything else that made you reluctant to continue posting; sometimes I don't know when I am carried away and when I'm being too forceful or cutting in my replies - I look to others to help me be aware of such things.

I looked and look forwards to more discussions with you, as I enjoy discussions with everyone in this forum.

It's hard for me to answer your objections because when I do, you ignore everything I said and impose your interpretations on me. I tried to write a response, but it felt like I was treading familiar ground using more words. And because natural language is inexact, I don't know how to frame my answers precisely enough to make sure you won't be able to misinterpret them.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 12:00 am

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Feb 16, 2022 10:28 pm Rotting Bones,

I apologize if I seemed curt or angry or anything else that made you reluctant to continue posting; sometimes I don't know when I am carried away and when I'm being too forceful or cutting in my replies - I look to others to help me be aware of such things.

I looked and look forwards to more discussions with you, as I enjoy discussions with everyone in this forum.

It's hard for me to answer your objections because when I do, you ignore everything I said

It was not my intention to ignore anything you said - so far as I could tell, I replied to everything you said, even to the point of dissecting sentences. What was I ignoring?

and impose your interpretations on me.

Sometimes when I add up the parts of a conversation, it adds up correctly...but not always; this seems to be one of the latter.

I tried to write a response, but it felt like I was treading familiar ground using more words.

Sometimes that is the best path to clarity.

And because natural language is inexact, I don't know how to frame my answers precisely enough to make sure you won't be able to misinterpret them.

Perhaps point out the places where you felt I was misinterpretting you? - it wouldn't be the first (or even fifth) time I've been in a conversation here and those of us involved in the conversation were talking past&over one another.