Zompist Bboard Again

Emily wrote: ↑Sun Jul 02, 2023 6:55 am didn't you say you're in the US? /ˈfɪɡjər/ is definitely the standard here (in 2023 or in 1919), i don't think i've ever heard an american say /ˈfɪɡər/

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Jul 02, 2023 1:40 pm

Emily wrote: ↑Sun Jul 02, 2023 6:55 am didn't you say you're in the US? /ˈfɪɡjər/ is definitely the standard here (in 2023 or in 1919), i don't think i've ever heard an american say /ˈfɪɡər/

Yeah, I am a Wisconsinite, and you do hear /ˈfɪɡər/ in everyday speech here.

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Jul 02, 2023 1:21 am I've seen "biled" for "boiled" in old sources, though I forget which. But I definitely boggle at "jine" for "join."

• silent b appears in in words either before t (debt, doubt, subtle, subtly) or after m (bomb, dumb, climb, comb, crum, jamb, lamb, lambkin, numb/number/numbest, aplomb, plumb, plumber, tomb)
• rhomb sometimes has the "learned pronunciation" [rɔmb], and the pronunciation of [ˈaɪˌæmb] for iamb is general
• in cupboard the p is silent
• in Jacob, Jacobs, Jacobson the b "very generally becomes voiceless"

• the book states that [d] is regularly assimilated to [t] after voiced consonants, but the only examples it gives are final -ed (backed, baked, sniffed, etc.)
• [t] sometimes becomes [d] "in relaxed and slovenly speech": belated [bɪˈleːdəd], rated [ˈreːdəd] ("scarcely distinguished in pronunciation from raided"), fitted [ˈfɪdəd]; putty "frequently" becomes [ˈpʌdɪ] "in popular speech", while the pronunciations [ˈwɔdə] for water, [ˈlɛdə] for letter, [ˈbɪdə] for bitter appear "in some dialects"
• some verb forms where we expect to find [d] after [l] or [n] instead are pronounced [t], which may or may not be spelled t: learned, learnt; burned, burnt; spoiled, spoilt. he notes that this is arbitrary; spilled can be [spɪlt] but killed cannot be [kɪlt] "except in dialect Irish-English, where pronunciations with [t] are found in many preterites and past participles which have only [d] in standard English"
• he notes that used is widely pronounced [juːst] in the phrase "used to" meaning "be accustomed to" or the past habitual (I used to go [aɪ ˈjuːstə ˈgoʊ]); the text seems to imply that when it means "be accustomed to" there may be two [t]s, but this could just be a misreading on my part
• in the same paragraph, he notes that a similar assimilation is found in I had to go [aɪ ˈhæt(ː)ə ˈgoʊ] — i have [dː] here, maybe occasionally just [d], but never [t]!
• [d] is often omitted "in standard familiar speech" between [n] and a consonant: grandmother, handkerchief, handsome, Windsor, brand-new ("also spelled bran-new"); unstressed and is often just [n]. he declares, however, that this deletion isn't universal: dropping the [d] in band-box, landlady, landlord is "heard only in careless or very rapid speech"
• in popular speech, [d] is sometimes inserted after [n] in stressed syllables: [drɑʊnd] for drown, [gɑʊnd] for gown
• [dʒ] is sometimes rendered [ʒ] after [n], [l], or [r], though he notes that "the pronunciation with [d] is to be preferred": angel, danger, hinge, impinge, strange; barge, large, forge, urge; bilge, bulge, indulge

• g is silent before [m] or [n] in many words: paradigm, phlegm, foreign, etc. while phlegm is [flɛm], phlegmatic is always [flɛgˈmætɪ]
• the standard pronunciation he lists for paradigm is [ˈpærədɪm], with [ˈpærəˌdaɪm] only a variant
• the usual pronunciation of poignant is [ˈpɔɪnənt], with a spelling pronunciation [ˈpɔɪgnənt] also in circulation — no mention of today's standard [ˈpɔɪnjənt]
• he notes that [g] is inserted after [ŋ] in comparatives and superlatives—stronger, strongest, younger, youngest, longer, longest—but not in words like bringer, hanger, ringer, singer, stringer; he states that the former is "through the influence of the comparative with [ɹ]" (putting them in the same category as anger, angry, finger), while the latter is through the influence of the head forms
• languor has three different current pronunciations: [ˈlæŋɚɹ], [ˈlæŋgɚɹ], [ˈlæŋgwɚɹ], with the first two more common than the third
• recognizance is usually pronounced with [g], less often without; he cites reconnaissance as basically just a different spelling of the same ([g]-less) word (though with the [z] pronounced as [s])
• gh is always silent, except when it stands for [f], "or in a few words for [g]"

Emily wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 5:56 pm welcome to the jungle consonants
[*]in Jacob, Jacobs, Jacobson the b "very generally becomes voiceless"

[*]he notes that used is widely pronounced [juːst] in the phrase "used to" meaning "be accustomed to" or the past habitual (I used to go [aɪ ˈjuːstə ˈgoʊ]); the text seems to imply that when it means "be accustomed to" there may be two [t]s, but this could just be a misreading on my part
[*]in the same paragraph, he notes that a similar assimilation is found in I had to go [aɪ ˈhæt(ː)ə ˈgoʊ] — i have [dː] here, maybe occasionally just [d], but never [t]!

Emily wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 5:56 pm the usual pronunciation of poignant is [ˈpɔɪnənt], with a spelling pronunciation [ˈpɔɪgnənt] also in circulation — no mention of today's standard [ˈpɔɪnjənt]

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 1:59 am

Emily wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 5:56 pm welcome to the jungle consonants
[*]in Jacob, Jacobs, Jacobson the b "very generally becomes voiceless"

True for me!

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 1:59 am

[*]he notes that used is widely pronounced [juːst] in the phrase "used to" meaning "be accustomed to" or the past habitual (I used to go [aɪ ˈjuːstə ˈgoʊ]); the text seems to imply that when it means "be accustomed to" there may be two [t]s, but this could just be a misreading on my part
[*]in the same paragraph, he notes that a similar assimilation is found in I had to go [aɪ ˈhæt(ː)ə ˈgoʊ] — i have [dː] here, maybe occasionally just [d], but never [t]!

Also true for me. It's [ju:zd] only in the sense of 'utilized'.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 1:11 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 1:59 am

Emily wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 5:56 pm welcome to the jungle consonants
[*]in Jacob, Jacobs, Jacobson the b "very generally becomes voiceless"

True for me!

This is true, but not in the way people might think, for me - in all these words /b/ is pronounced [p] but it phonemically remains /b/ - the vowel before it remains long (rather than being short as if it were /p/) and the consonant is not preglottalized (rather than being preglottalized as if it were /p/),

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 3:54 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 1:11 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 1:59 am

True for me!

This is true, but not in the way people might think, for me - in all these words /b/ is pronounced [p] but it phonemically remains /b/ - the vowel before it remains long (rather than being short as if it were /p/) and the consonant is not preglottalized (rather than being preglottalized as if it were /p/),

"Jacob" doesn't have a lengthened vowel for me; it contrasts with "carob" which does have a /b/.

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 3:54 pm I do have a lengthened vowel in "ride" [ra:jd] as opposed to "write" [rajt], but it disappears in "rider", which thus merges with "writer".

• h is pronounced in human, humble, humor, though "perhaps [ˈjuːmɚɹ] should be recognized as an occasional cultivated pronunciation"
• herb is sometimes pronounced with /h/ but more frequently pronounced without; the same is also true of the names Humphrey and Humphries
• despite that, the /h/ is always pronounced in herbage, herbalist, herbarium, etc.
• the spelling pronunciation [ˈfɔrˌhɛd] for forehead is only "occasionally heard"
• two of the three examples he gives for initial /h/ being dropped in weakly stressed syllables come after an: an historical novel, an heraldic device — using "an" with these words is possibly the most pretentious thing you could do in the english language. imo

• in popular speech, yeast is often pronounced [ˈiːst]
• column is frequently pronounced [ˈkɑljəm] in "illiterate speech"
• surveillance is either [sɚɹˈveːləns] or [sɚɹˈveːljəns]

• schism is pronounced [ˈsɪzm]
• flaccid is pronounced [ˈf'læksɪd]

• almond is normally [ˈɑːmnd] but in popular speech is "not infrequently" [ˈælmənd], no mention of today's standard [ˈɑlmənd]
• though [gɔlf] for golf is "perhaps the more common pronunciation in America", he also lists the pronunciation [gɔːf]
• he makes sure to let you know the l is silent in Lincoln. just in case you weren't aware

Emily wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:18 am [*]column is frequently pronounced [ˈkɑljəm] in "illiterate speech"

Emily wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:18 am [*]almond is normally [ˈɑːmnd] but in popular speech is "not infrequently" [ˈælmənd], no mention of today's standard [ˈɑlmənd]

Emily wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:18 am two of the three examples he gives for initial /h/ being dropped in weakly stressed syllables come after an: an historical novel, an heraldic device — using "an" with these words is possibly the most pretentious thing you could do in the english language. imo

Estav wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:50 am

Emily wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:18 am [*]column is frequently pronounced [ˈkɑljəm] in "illiterate speech"

I've never heard of that, but I've seen kind of a reverse phenomenon of people using spellings like "vacumn" and "volumn".

Emily wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:18 am [*]almond is normally [ˈɑːmnd] but in popular speech is "not infrequently" [ˈælmənd], no mention of today's standard [ˈɑlmənd]

I couldn't tell from the way you worded this if you meant to say [ˈɑlmənd] is standard alongside [ˈɑːmnd] and [ˈælmənd], or instead of them.
I have always used [ˈɑːmənd] and all the dictionaries I've checked list it without comment... I'm cot-caught merged but I'd imagine some speakers use [ɔlm] or [ɔm].

Hmm. The Harvard dialect survey results are surprising to me, though: 59.68% all-mond vs. 18.69% ah-mond. That suggests that [ɔlm] is in fact the most common pronunciation.

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 8:05 pmalmond has /ɔlm-/ (which can be [ɔˁm-] even for people who don't generally have l-vocalization)

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 10:22 am

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 8:05 pmalmond has /ɔlm-/ (which can be [ɔˁm-] even for people who don't generally have l-vocalization)

The /l/ there is intrusive and still sounds odd to me (though not as much as in the spelling pronunciation of salmon).

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:01 pm I always though schism was pronounced with a *k

Emily wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:36 pm

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:01 pm I always though schism was pronounced with a *k

it is today!