Zompist Bboard Again

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 5:09 pm Sometimes, in Germany, you come across very wide cups used for coffee, cappuccino, and the like, which look almost like a small cereal bowl with a handle. But one of those is still called a "Tasse" ("cup"), not a "Schüssel" ("bowl").

German, of course, also has "Becher" (cup), but I think you could not use it in this context.

Creyeditor wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 8:13 am German, of course, also has "Becher" (cup), but I think you could not use it in this context.

Oh, I'd translate German "Becher" into English as "mug", not "cup".

Right, that's possible. What is the difference between a mug and a cup?

Creyeditor wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 12:59 pm Right, that's possible. What is the difference between a mug and a cup?

In my mind, a mug is usually a ceramic vessel of fairly small size (the standard would be about eight fluid ounces, but they can be larger, and do come as "soup mugs", which may or may not be used for soup, or even larger tall or deliberately-oversized ones) meant to hold hot beverages, and which are now usually also microwave-safe (you might microwave water for tea or hot coffee in one, for example).

A mug is a kind of "cup", which in my experience is much broader, and may include tall vessels (usually made of glass, and called "glasses") meant for cold drinks. It can also be used in the phrase "measuring cup" (which may be one of several distinct kitchen objects, but usually fairly small ones in denominations such as "cup, half cup" and the like, "cup" being also a customary unit of measurement not now used, to my understanding, anywhere but the United States), To me, consequently, all mugs are cups, but not all cups are mugs.

My paternal grandmother (Southern US, age 90) does use "cup" more restrictively as "mug; unit of measurement", however, and distinguishes between a "cup" and a "glass" (she once operated a tea room, and remarked genuine confusion when an employee asked for "cups", meaning "glasses" — a more Northern and younger speaker thing — but which was interpreted as "mugs", though the matter was figured out without any great harm being done).

On this note, while you might drink tea from a mug, a "teacup" is usually a more lightweight, rather small vessel (though again oversized ones may exist), often accompanied by a saucer, would not be a kind of "mug", despite being otherwise similar. The word "mug" may also be used for the thick-glass vessels from which beer is often consumed (though tall vessels of thinner glass, called "beer glasses" also exist), but I would normally use the term "(beer) stein" (with a half-Anglicised pronunciation of stein as [stain]). The word "coffee cup" typically refers to a small, usually white mug holding approximately eight fluid ounces, in which restaurants serve coffee. The term "coffee mug" may be used interchangeably with this, but I encounter "coffee cup" far more often.

(My, this is rather a lot of explanation, isn't it?)

This is a lot, but it seems to line up with my German intuitions.

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 11:42 am

Creyeditor wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 8:13 am German, of course, also has "Becher" (cup), but I think you could not use it in this context.

Oh, I'd translate German "Becher" into English as "mug", not "cup".

Would you say it's different from a beaker?

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 1:13 pmIn my mind, a mug is usually a ceramic vessel of fairly small size (the standard would be about eight fluid ounces, but they can be larger, and do come as "soup mugs", which may or may not be used for soup, or even larger tall or deliberately-oversized ones) meant to hold hot beverages, and which are now usually also microwave-safe (you might microwave water for tea or hot coffee in one, for example).

I would say the standard-sized mug is actually 12 oz, not 8, and that the defining feature isn't the material (plastic and glass mugs exist) but the presence of a handle.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote:A mug is a kind of "cup", which in my experience is much broader, and may include tall vessels (usually made of glass, and called "glasses") meant for cold drinks. It can also be used in the phrase "measuring cup" (which may be one of several distinct kitchen objects, but usually fairly small ones in denominations such as "cup, half cup" and the like, "cup" being also a customary unit of measurement not now used, to my understanding, anywhere but the United States), To me, consequently, all mugs are cups, but not all cups are mugs.

For me, these are two different kinds of drinkware. Mugs are heavier and always have handles; cups are lighter, typically smaller, and may or may not have handles.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote:My paternal grandmother (Southern US, age 90) does use "cup" more restrictively as "mug; unit of measurement", however, and distinguishes between a "cup" and a "glass" (she once operated a tea room, and remarked genuine confusion when an employee asked for "cups", meaning "glasses" — a more Northern and younger speaker thing — but which was interpreted as "mugs", though the matter was figured out without any great harm being done).

Tea is drunk from glasses in some regions (e.g. Eastern Europe, Middle East), so I would have understood this as asking for a small glass similar to a juice glass.

Vijay wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 3:00 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 11:42 am

Creyeditor wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 8:13 am German, of course, also has "Becher" (cup), but I think you could not use it in this context.

Oh, I'd translate German "Becher" into English as "mug", not "cup".

Would you say it's different from a beaker?

Yes, definitely. A "beaker" in the modern scientific "piece of laboratory equipment" sense is called a "Reagenzglas".

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 3:16 pm I would say (...) that the defining feature isn't the material (plastic and glass mugs exist) but the presence of a handle.

Obligatory mathematician's joke: no, if it has a handle, then it's a donut.


(Sorry, sorry, I'll show myself out...)

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 3:25 pm Yes, definitely. A "beaker" in the modern scientific "piece of laboratory equipment" sense is called a "Reagenzglas".

Are you sure? From a cursory look, a "Reagenzglas" looks more like a test tube, not a beaker...

In French, a beaker (the laboratory equipment) is called... a "bécher". Which I could add to the thread about "loanwords with more specific meaning".

Ryusenshi wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 4:24 pm Are you sure? From a cursory look, a "Reagenzglas" looks more like a test tube, not a beaker...

Oh, perhaps I misunderstood what the English word "beaker" means.

My intuition is that a mug either has a handle and is relatively wide and is of medium to medium-high height (unless it is eine Maß, where then it may be pretty talll), unless it is a travel mug, where then it may not have a handle and may be narrower and taller (but will always have a top that prevents the contents, typically coffee, from sloshing out). A cup either lacks a handle, is narrower and medium to high height, or shorter, may have a handle, and may be wider, as in the case of a coffee cup or a teacup, which is particularly short; note that coffee cups may overlap considerably with mugs, and are typically (but not always) taller than teacups.

In German, I'd say if the main body of a thing-you-can-drink-from is cylindrical, it's a "Becher"; if it's narrower at the bottom than at the top, it's a "Tasse". For some reason I tend to assume that the same goes for the distinction between English "mug" and "cup", though I'm probably wrong about that.

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 4:38 pm In German, I'd say if the main body of a thing-you-can-drink-from is cylindrical, it's a "Becher"; if it's narrower at the bottom than at the top, it's a "Tasse". For some reason I tend to assume that the same goes for the distinction between English "mug" and "cup", though I'm probably wrong about that.

A glass is considered a kind of cup in English, and glasses are very commonly tall and cylindrical (and handle-less).

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 4:38 pm In German, I'd say if the main body of a thing-you-can-drink-from is cylindrical, it's a "Becher"; if it's narrower at the bottom than at the top, it's a "Tasse". For some reason I tend to assume that the same goes for the distinction between English "mug" and "cup", though I'm probably wrong about that.

For me, a cup is small (it's also a measuring unit, of 237 ml) and delicately made. A mug is bigger and bulkier.

But there's a big overlap. I have several mugs like this



but if I've misplaced it I could easily ask "Where's my coffee cup?"

The Wikipedia article for "mug" starts off with a picture that I'd classify as a cup...

zompist wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 9:23 pmThe Wikipedia article for "mug" starts off with a picture that I'd classify as a cup...

I think that's just the angle. There's some foreshortening which makes the base look narrower than the lip but I think that, in reality, it's exactly the same shape as the mug in the picture you posted here.

Glasses are emphatically not a "kid of cup" IMD. If someone asked me, "Have you seen my cup?" and all there was on the counter was a glass I'd be like, "Do you mean this?" not "Oh, it's right here".

For me, a mug is defined by having a handle. That Wikipedia page starts with what I’d call a ‘mug’. zompist’s picture is also a ‘mug’.

A ‘cup’, meanwhile, is an opaque container used for holding a drink. The prototypical ‘cup’ is a plastic thing without a handle. However, I see nothing wrong with calling zompist’s image a ‘coffee cup’. All ‘mugs’ are ‘cups’, but not the other way around. (Also, kitchen measuring cups are called ‘cups’, but that’s an exceptional case.)

A ‘glass’ is a transparent container without a handle, usually used during meals to drink out of. ‘Glasses’ must be made out of glass. (I suppose I would be fine with using the term for something made out of some other hard transparent material, but in practise I’ve only ever seen ones made out of real glass.) ‘Glasses’ and ‘cups’ are mutually exclusive.

To me glasses are a kind of cup - all glasses (except for wine glasses) are cups (if I asked "where did you put my cup?" I might be looking for a glass; note that I typically would not say *"where did you put my glass") but obviously not all cups are glasses (after all, glasses must be made out of glass, and glasses don't have handles, whereas coffee cups, which oftentimes also count as mugs, typically do, aside from typically being ceramic and not glass).

Note that the kind of glass-which-is-a-cup for me is either like a tall, cylindrical, and not very wide glass, or a shorter, somewhat wider, and also cylindrical glass (i.e. a tumbler); wine glasses are emphatically not "cups" for me.

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 9:44 pmA ‘cup’, meanwhile, is an opaque container used for holding a drink. The prototypical ‘cup’ is a plastic thing without a handle. However, I see nothing wrong with calling zompist’s image a ‘coffee cup’. All ‘mugs’ are ‘cups’, but not the other way around. (Also, kitchen measuring cups are called ‘cups’, but that’s an exceptional case.)

I don’t think it is. There are all kinds of “cups” which are not drinking vessels: suction cups, the heated cups used in cupping, cup-and-ball toys, etc. It’s really drinking cups that are a specific instance of a general kind of vessel defined by its shape.