Zompist Bboard Again

This thread reminded me of a favourite video of mine: Posy - Some Kind Of

Zach Weinersmith chimes in.

masako wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 10:21 am I think of this stuff as a consequence of the people running DIS not being Trek fans, a few of them expressly so. JJ Abrams has said that he never watched it, and Akiva Goldsman cut his teeth writing Batman Forever, and Batman & Robin, which, are some of the worst movies ever put to film IMHO.

It's Abrams' MO at this point. He also partly wrecked Star Wars with unoriginal, generic offerings. He just doesn't seem to care about the franchises, which is why he shouldn't be allowed to do one-off works within them.

His understanding of the brief is little more than surface aesthetics and whatever's the laziest way to generate a few big scenes.

chris_notts wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 12:28 pm

masako wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 10:21 am I think of this stuff as a consequence of the people running DIS not being Trek fans, a few of them expressly so. JJ Abrams has said that he never watched it, and Akiva Goldsman cut his teeth writing Batman Forever, and Batman & Robin, which, are some of the worst movies ever put to film IMHO.

It's Abrams' MO at this point. He also partly wrecked Star Wars with unoriginal, generic offerings. He just doesn't seem to care about the franchises, which is why he shouldn't be allowed to do one-off works within them.

His understanding of the brief is little more than surface aesthetics and whatever's the laziest way to generate a few big scenes.

Gene Roddenberry would be spinning in his grave were it not for the fact that he was cremated and then blasted into space.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 3:57 pm Gene Roddenberry would be spinning in his grave were it not for the fact that he was cremated and then blasted into space.

Although to be fair, DS9 would have had Roddenberry spinning too, and that's probably the best Star Trek series ever made. It did go a bit dark and abandon the Federation as a peaceful harmonious utopia though, and Roddenberry was famously against too much intercrew conflict on TNG because he felt humanity would be more evolved by TNG times.

chris_notts wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 5:29 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 3:57 pm Gene Roddenberry would be spinning in his grave were it not for the fact that he was cremated and then blasted into space.

Although to be fair, DS9 would have had Roddenberry spinning too, and that's probably the best Star Trek series ever made. It did go a bit dark and abandon the Federation as a peaceful harmonious utopia though, and Roddenberry was famously against too much intercrew conflict on TNG because he felt humanity would be more evolved by TNG times.

“In the Pale Moonlight” is a highlight of the franchise.

In general, the more romantically effective individual emotions are in a story, the more "fantasy" it feels. The more that rational outcomes of systems subjugate the intentions of individuals, the more it feels like "science fiction". Technology is just a useful metaphor for telling the latter kind of story. If the antagonist's malevolence gives him superhuman power, that's a fantasy story whether you call him a mad scientist or a Dark Lord. If a character's best-laid plans backfire because of unintentional effects of the system in which he's embedded, that's a science fiction story whether the character is a scientist or the Sorcerer's Apprentice. I think the Game of Thrones books (never watched the show) feel less like fantasy because of the sheer weight that social systems bring to bear on the plot. A more stereotypical fantasy story would rely more heavily on fairytale symbolism.

Assuming the above argument is cogent, a Star Trek episode could be either fantasy or science fiction depending on whether the outcomes are being manipulated by a superhuman intelligence or whether they were retroactively predictable as an effect of unknown/unreasoned features of some unthinking system.

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masako wrote: ↑Fri Aug 04, 2023 6:30 am I'm not mad, really. I'm not gonna make claims that "I'll never watch again!", or any dramatic bullshit like that, but I'm overall very disappointed. SNW was, until today, reason enough to hope that Trek was on an upward trajectory that I would be excited to watch and enjoy. After DIS and PIC, I guess I should have known better.

I agree that the new series have been very hit and miss and uneven. But I'm not too mad at SNW for the musical episode because SNW's whole thing has been diversity / doing a different thing every week. I was probably my least favourite episode so far, but I did get through it and as long as they don't make a habit of it...

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I'm outlining some novelas in a sci-fi setting. The idea is I want something that will scratch the Star Trek itch without being fanfiction (i.e. something I can legally sell). What, in your opinions, defines Star Trek and its vibe? Does it have any features that make you think "Oh, this is like Star Trek" in other media?

Back in the day, I would have said, a general optimism, but that appears less true, now. Interstellar exploration and politics in a setting that basically accepts the "Space as an ocean" metaphor?

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 1:46 am I'm outlining some novelas in a sci-fi setting. The idea is I want something that will scratch the Star Trek itch without being fanfiction (i.e. something I can legally sell). What, in your opinions, defines Star Trek and its vibe? Does it have any features that make you think "Oh, this is like Star Trek" in other media?

Judging from TOS only... Plot that tend towards intellectual puzzles as much as action; a space navy setting; war depicted as the worst option; a cast of characters with opposite but complementary values.

Nice, thank you for the input. Keep it coming!

I am of two minds about the "space navy" trope. On the one hand, it makes no sense. Space travel is so different from ocean travel, and a quasi-military would be the last thing we'd want exploring the galaxy. But it just works so well in fiction!

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 1:46 am I'm outlining some novelas in a sci-fi setting. The idea is I want something that will scratch the Star Trek itch without being fanfiction (i.e. something I can legally sell). What, in your opinions, defines Star Trek and its vibe? Does it have any features that make you think "Oh, this is like Star Trek" in other media?

Imagine you're producing an episodic TV show. No, really! A lot of TOS's Trekkiness comes from the old-style constraints: a small recurring cast; self-contained stories; no overall plot; the assurance that nothing permanently bad can happen to the characters. For that '60s feel, no grimdark or tortured heroes.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 6:28 am Nice, thank you for the input. Keep it coming!

I am of two minds about the "space navy" trope. On the one hand, it makes no sense. Space travel is so different from ocean travel, and a quasi-military would be the last thing we'd want exploring the galaxy. But it just works so well in fiction!

The trope makes a bit of sense. You still have to cram people in a tiny vessel in an hostile medium. I don't think space war makes much sense, but the element of danger and 'everything must be done just right or we all die horribly' is there.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 6:28 am

I am of two minds about the "space navy" trope. On the one hand, it makes no sense. Space travel is so different from ocean travel, and a quasi-military would be the last thing we'd want exploring the galaxy. But it just works so well in fiction!

Of course you can drop it if you want, but I'd say it's so central to "Star Trekkiness" that if you drop it, it won't really make sense to describe the result as in any way "something like Star Trek".

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I did read one piece of fiction which used the terminology of nobility to express command hierarchy; I think there was a Lord of Astrogation, to give an example.