KathTheDragon wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:19 am
Late, but this depends on which interpretation you follow. Contrary to popular belief, hidden-variables interpretations can and do work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOe-7GH83Us
AIUI none of the interpretations change the practical implications.
Moose-tache wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:17 am
Because they already know what it is! We are assuming that the vast gulf in what is considered meaningful between different species from different ecosystems is trivial to recognizing an artificial signal. I don't think that is a wise assumption to make.
There are many natural radio sources in the galaxy. I'm just not seeing how you can get away with SOS signals that don't stand out.
There is no reason for the real world analogy to be as ordered as a galactic SOS needs to be, but even the Morse code is ...---...
IIRC, entropy = -log(probability of occurrence)
You don't go with a bird call unless your recipient is expecting one at that moment.
Moose-tache wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:24 am
"Alpha Centauri is willing to send us the tools we need to stop climate change."
"What do they want in return?"
"Solar panels."
"Alright. Let's burn more coal so we can make the solar panels to send to Alpha Centauri so they will... Wait."
"What?"
"I feel like there's an easier way."
"Yeah, I think I see it too."
"We should broadcast a distress signal at 50 megawatts asking for green energy solutions."
"That will be expensive."
"You're right. Better burn more oil to pay for it."
"Good plan. Say, do you ever wonder if maybe we're idiots?"
Looks to me like we're headed straight for cataclysm without even making the necessary number of solar cells. If they're idiots, what are we?
Avoiding climate change is a different goal from rendering climate crises irrelevant.
keenir wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:56 pm
so, they haven't been sending messages to and from other habitats or nodes in between the time they left & the time they need help?
I think you misunderstand the theory of relativity. (Edit: Basically, there is no method to transmit any signal faster than the speed of light.)
keenir wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:56 pm
except that the throne will be following a road to that city, even if the road does not stretch all the way to that farmer's door - it will still not be a trackless void.
Do you mean tracks leading in all directions? My mother came home from college in Siuri by taking a bus most of the way, and then crossing cultivated fields, walking along canals and fording rivers. Once, she was stuck because it had rained and the river looked dangerous. She waited on the bank till a bullock cart gave her a lift.
keenir wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:56 pm
and you're not talking about sending out
a farmer, in your analogy.....sending an SOS out in all directions, is basically sending out a farmer in every direction from his home....and hoping and praying that at least one reaches a city
without first dying of exhaustion because signals get weaker with distance, when not focused in one direction.
That is not the analogy. The analogy is with the exchange network. In this context, the equivalent of a track would be the destination as seen through a telescope and the throng would be a convoy.
keenir wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:56 pm
if goods are constantly entering and leaving, then by definition, their location is not unknown.
If relativity is true, then there is nothing to prevent us from receiving cargo from defunct habitats. If the sun is somehow snatched away by aliens, we will see nothing out of the ordinary and continue to orbit a nonexistent star for 8 minutes 20 seconds afterwards.
Once again, my point is that they don't know the locations of the habitats. This could be because of new habitats, moved habitats or extinct habitats.
keenir wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:05 pm
researchers work on a lot of things...dolphin communication, tree telepathy, lysenkoism, etc.
Speaking for myself, being a scientist has nothing to do with anything. All that matters is the weight of your evidence and the solidity of your inferences. Eg. It may be that I would be better off by submitting to the authority of Taleb's grandmother than by listening to science, but frankly, I don't care about that. Rationality is more important to me than success.
keenir wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:05 pm
why do they need your sort of range? they could advance from handing scented waxes, to packaging the waxes and shipping it to the recipient.
The idea that they will ever make it out of the wilds sounds like an overly optimistic assessment to me. That is a grossly inefficient form of communication in terms of range, time and resource expenditure. If a predator is approaching, you have to get back to your tribe and hand the first individual a scented wax. The entire tribe will then have to finish handing each other scented waxes, depleting who knows how much nutrition. Over galactic distances, material signs will of course be slower than light speed without FTL.
keenir wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:09 pm
every direction...look at projects like TESS and its like.
Thanks. Just making sure, given dɮ the phoneme's posts.
Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:32 pm
Although it's conceivable that a civilization might use broadcast at one stage or another of its history, it turns out it's not necessarily a given, will probably vary over the civilizations' life time and we can't really conclude anything about the absence of radio signals.
The problem is that there is no sign of ordered signals anywhere across the universe. We've seen plenty of anomalies that point to holes in our cosmological models, but none of them credibly point to intelligent life.
Vardelm wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:45 am
keenir wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:25 pm
I think one of the suggested answers for Fermi was, actually, that everyone is listening, and nobody is broadcasting.
The universe is filled with introverts.
Or it's Liu Cixin's Dark Forest analogy.