Zompist Bboard Again

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:19 pm

Zju wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:07 pmAs for the latter, yes, some ancient Romance or Celtic vernacular could as well be the source of *ibai- family of words.

Nope.

A single word is not an argument. As Rounin Ryuuji pointed out, it could as well be the case.

Zju wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:58 amA single word is not an argument. As Rounin Ryuuji pointed out, it could as well be the case.

I'm afraid isn't the case.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:20 am

Zju wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:58 amA single word is not an argument. As Rounin Ryuuji pointed out, it could as well be the case.

I'm afraid isn't the case.

…but why? If you want to convince people of something, you can’t just state your opinion; you have to give reasons why your opinion is correct and theirs is wrong.

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:00 ambut why? If you want to convince people of something, you can’t just state your opinion; you have to give reasons why your opinion is correct and theirs is wrong.

Of couse, but they just don't want to see the evidence.

And why are you always afraid that this or that is the case? Does the truth, as you see it, frighten you? Or do you just use the word afraid because you have missed its actual meaning?

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:18 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:00 ambut why? If you want to convince people of something, you can’t just state your opinion; you have to give reasons why your opinion is correct and theirs is wrong.

Of couse, but they just don't want to see the evidence.

Don’t want to see the evidence is one thing. Won’t show the evidence is another thing entirely. Where is the evidence??? If you want us to see your evidence, stick it in our faces!!!!!

Getting back to the thread's topic, there're some cases of "intrusive r" in Basque between adjacent vowels, although they're restricted to dialectal or combinatory variants.

Some examples:
arate 'duck', dialectal variant of ahate < Latin anate-
abara- 'beehive; honeycomb', combinatory variant of abao, abau (Biscayan) < Romance *cofanu (Latin cophinu-) 'deep basket'
(h)aburin, kaburin 'foam; froth', dialectal variant of haboin, habuin (Lapurdian) < Celtic?

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:44 amThe latter is widely considered to underly *h₁eḱwos 'horse',

I'm afraid (= I think what you're saying is wrong) this is a Wanderwort linked to the domestication of the animal.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 8:03 am

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:44 amThe latter is widely considered to underly *h₁eḱwos 'horse',

I'm afraid (= I think what you're saying is wrong)

That's not really the meaning of afraid. Rather, afraid is more or less a synonym of frightened or worried. But I of course know that when you say that you are afraid, you intend to mean 'No, you are wrong'

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 8:03 am this is a Wanderwort linked to the domestication of the animal.

It doesn't surprise me at all that you are saying this, and I don't think I (or anyone else on this board) will ever convince you that your doubts against the validity of the standard model of Indo-European are unwarranted. The standard model may not be the ultimate truth, but it is based on a huge amount of rock solid evidence, and thus most likely very close to the truth, even if some open questions remain. How much evidence do you have in favour of your ideas?

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:07 am

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 8:03 am

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:44 amThe latter is widely considered to underly *h₁eḱwos 'horse',

I'm afraid (= I think what you're saying is wrong)

That's not really the meaning of afraid. Rather, afraid is more or less a synonym of frightened or worried. But I of course know that when you say that you are afraid, you intend to mean 'No, you are wrong'

I’m afraid Talskubilos’s usage is entirely correct (at least for me), if a bit tactless. To quote dictionary.com:

afraid adjective

… 2 feeling regret, unhappiness, or the like: I'm afraid we can't go on Monday.

(Let this be a reminder to us conlangers that semantic extension can go in entirely unexpected directions!)

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:30 am

Zju wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:19 pmIt could stem fron PIE *h₂ep-.

OEH (Old European Hydronyms) roots can't belong to PIE.

why not? was the Old European Hydronym unable to borrow from other languages, such as from PIE?

I would find that (no ancient hydronyms at all even potentially being Indo-European) pretty surprising, since Indo-European seems very much like it likes to get all over the place.

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 11:53 am

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:30 am

Zju wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:19 pmIt could stem fron PIE *h₂ep-.

OEH (Old European Hydronyms) roots can't belong to PIE.

why not? was the Old European Hydronym unable to borrow from other languages, such as from PIE?

The Old European Hydronymy is IMHO a mixed bag. Some names on Krahe's list, such as Brigantia, are patently Celtic (or from some other known IE language), some are probably from Neolithic or even older layers, but it seems to me (and some other scholars) as if some of them came from a lost branch of IE, which I suspect to have been the "Southern IE" language of the Bell Beaker people. The problem with such names is that we don't know the original meanings, unless a strong positive correlation between a name element and a trait of the landscape features named thus can be found. An example of such a correlation is the element *hal- frequently occurring in the names of old Central European salt production sites, which allows us to assign the meaning 'salt' to this element - in whichever language it came from. What we need is an atlas of the Old European Hydronymy which may reveal patterns in the hydronymy that aren't obvious from alphabetically sorted lists. That's on my to-do list, but not at a high priority.

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:19 am I’m afraid Talskubilos’s usage is entirely correct (at least for me), if a bit tactless. To quote dictionary.com:

afraid adjective

… 2 feeling regret, unhappiness, or the like: I'm afraid we can't go on Monday.

But he neither fears, nor regrets or is unhappy about disagreeing -- he's enjoying this. He knows that. You knows that. I knows that.

fusijui wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 3:49 pmBut he neither fears, nor regrets or is unhappy about disagreeing -- he's enjoying this. He knows that. You knows that. I knows that.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:07 am

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 8:03 amthis is a Wanderwort linked to the domestication of the animal.

It doesn't surprise me at all that you are saying this, and I don't think I (or anyone else on this board) will ever convince you that your doubts against the validity of the standard model of Indo-European are unwarranted. The standard model may not be the ultimate truth, but it is based on a huge amount of rock solid evidence, and thus most likely very close to the truth, even if some open questions remain. How much evidence do you have in favour of your ideas?

I agree *h₁eḱwo- is a PIE word, but correspondences with other families show us we're dealing with a Wanderwort, just as other names of domesticated animals.

You keep on going on and on with essentially "nuh-uh you're wrong" without giving any solid reason behind it—how are we supposed to believe you when you refuse to give a justification for your statements?

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:42 pm

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:07 am

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 8:03 amthis is a Wanderwort linked to the domestication of the animal.

It doesn't surprise me at all that you are saying this, and I don't think I (or anyone else on this board) will ever convince you that your doubts against the validity of the standard model of Indo-European are unwarranted. The standard model may not be the ultimate truth, but it is based on a huge amount of rock solid evidence, and thus most likely very close to the truth, even if some open questions remain. How much evidence do you have in favour of your ideas?

I agree *h₁eḱwo- is a PIE word, but correspondences with other families show us we're dealing with a Wanderwort, just as other names of domesticated animals.

then who do you think domesticated the horse

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 1:52 pm What we need is an atlas of the Old European Hydronymy which may reveal patterns in the hydronymy that aren't obvious from alphabetically sorted lists. That's on my to-do list, but not at a high priority.

Like this? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _Krahe.jpg

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:49 pm

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 1:52 pm What we need is an atlas of the Old European Hydronymy which may reveal patterns in the hydronymy that aren't obvious from alphabetically sorted lists. That's on my to-do list, but not at a high priority.

Like this? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _Krahe.jpg

Yes.