Zompist Bboard Again

MacAnDàil wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:02 am I might perhaps modify that to also include 'non-native fluent speakers'. This is of particular concern for African vernacular lingua francae like Swahili.

I decided that listing additional suitable authors would overly complicate matters.

MacAnDàil wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:02 am 'heid' /hid/ and 'hoose'/'hous' /hus/ are indeed examples of Scots.

Actually, the plural of 'house' I heard had /s/ in the plural, whereas standard English irregularly has /z/. I think that form and /hi:d/ for 'head' turn up in several Anglic dialects that can currently only be classified as forms of English. I don't remember hearing 'hoose', but that's so well known that it wouldn't have registered as unusual.

MacAnDàil wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:02 am Where were you in Scotland? Some areas, such as Edinburgh (my home town) (especially the upper-class neighbourhoods) and St Andrews have more erosion than others whereas the Shetlands, Orkney and Aberdeenshire are among the most resilient areas.

I was in Stirling.

Were you involved in the clean up efforts last week? I was expecting us to get a report on the struggles.

I've spent just over a week ensuring that the Northern Thai Wikipedia complies with CC BY-SA. We've got one minor Lua module that doesn't, but it will be no great loss.

One reason why I did not take part in the clean-up of the Scots Wikipedia is also why I took a while to reply: my laptop is being repaired. Also, I'm focussed on my PhD (on the comparison of the diglossiae in Réunion and in Scotland) that I didn't have when I edited Wikipedia on regular basis (I'm on my girlfriends' laptop now).

Also, certainly some elements of Scots are found in other Anglic varieties, especially in the North of England. It is theoretically possible for the Anglic varieties of the North of England to be claimed as separate languages as well, especially in their most divergent forms; it's partly questions of geopolitics and identity that mean that it is much less likely for these varieties to get specific recognition.

However, the political border between Scotland and England coincides with several isoglosses (some of which are due to changes on the English side e.g. /x/ v 0), as well as the existence of other elements specific to Scotland, most obviously words of Gaelic origin. Another difference is that Scots is the only Anglic language variety other than standard English with a varied literary tradition dating back centuries. And this political border isogloss is exacerbated in the past century or so, with greater loss of local speech in the North of England.

MacAnDàil wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:00 am Also, certainly some elements of Scots are found in other Anglic varieties, especially in the North of England.

I've encountered Scottish irredentist claims on Yorkshire.

However, /hi:d/ is a fairly natural exception to the irregular shortening. I think I encountered it in West Midlands - possibly Black Country. Wiktionary currently records /di:d/ as a West Country pronunciation of dead. I don't think there's anything Scottish about these varieties.

Richard W wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:58 amHowever, /hi:d/ is a fairly natural exception to the irregular shortening. I think I encountered it in West Midlands - possibly Black Country. Wiktionary currently records /di:d/ as a West Country pronunciation of dead. I don't think there's anything Scottish about these varieties.

I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make here. Standard German has [haos] for "house" whereas Alemannic varieties generally have [hu:s]. I don't think anyone tries to class the former as "Anglic" and the latter as "Scots" on the basis of that.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:51 pm

Richard W wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:58 amHowever, /hi:d/ is a fairly natural exception to the irregular shortening. I think I encountered it in West Midlands - possibly Black Country. Wiktionary currently records /di:d/ as a West Country pronunciation of dead. I don't think there's anything Scottish about these varieties.

I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make here. Standard German has [haos] for "house" whereas Alemannic varieties generally have [hu:s]. I don't think anyone tries to class the former as "Anglic" and the latter as "Scots" on the basis of that.

What is significant is that Scots lacks the diphthongization of Middle English/Middle Scots /u:/, which makes it contrast with English. The fact that Alemannic also generally lacks the diphthongization of Middle High German /u:/ is just coincidental.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:31 pmWhat is significant is that Scots lacks the diphthongization of Middle English/Middle Scots /u:/, which makes it contrast with English. The fact that Alemannic also generally lacks the diphthongization of Middle High German /u:/ is just coincidental.

You're close to grasping my point, Travis, but not quite there. I feel like Richard is saying, "These features aren't distinctively 'Scottish' because they're found in other West Germanic varieties." Well, you could say that about all manner of features. It's the particular combinations that make the varieties distinct. (Lack of diphthongisation, for instance, is characteristic not only of Alemannic varieties but also of Low Saxon. They also share the development of MHG /a:/ > /o:/. But you wouldn't ever mistake one for the other because of the vast differences in their consonantal phonology.)

Do those Black Country varieties with /hi:d/ for head also have /hu:s/ for house? I'd be very surprised.

View of San Francisco, a bit before noon today:
https://twitter.com/mathewkiang/status/ ... 6395773953

It's pretty haunting.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:05 pm Do those Black Country varieties with /hi:d/ for head also have /hu:s/ for house? I'd be very surprised.

My point was that /hi:d/ and /haʊsɪz/ aren't distinctively Scots - indeed the latter seems to be rather clearly an English loan, and archaic or modified.

I have not encountered Scottish irredentism on Yorkshire. It must be an extremely minority position.

I misunderstood which pronunciation of 'houses' you were referring to. I had thought you were referring to /hus(ez)/, which exists in several Germanic languages including Scots. It turns you were referring to a pronunciation which does not even strike me as Scottish English, let alone Scots, as the main Scottish English pronunciation would be /hʌus(ez)/.

Have you never heard anyone say 'A dinnae ken', 'Ye'll be awa fur the messages, will ye?' or 'A widnae say that masel'?

MacAnDàil wrote: ↑Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:13 am I misunderstood which pronunciation of 'houses' you were referring to. I had thought you were referring to /hus(ez)/, which exists in several Germanic languages including Scots. It turns you were referring to a pronunciation which does not even strike me as Scottish English, let alone Scots, as the main Scottish English pronunciation would be /hʌus(ez)/.

And that may well be what I heard - it's close enough for the plural to register as /haʊsɪz/ to the untrained English ear.

MacAnDàil wrote: ↑Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:13 am Have you never heard anyone say 'A dinnae ken', 'Ye'll be awa fur the messages, will ye?' or 'A widnae say that masel'?

The first and third wouldn't register. A Scottish colleague of ours may well utter them at work, but we know enough Scots to immediately understand him. They've probably been uttered by Frazer in Dad's Army, and may well be in 'Kidnapped', though spelt differently. I had to stop and think about the second, so it seems likely that I haven't heard it.

Ser wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:26 pm View of San Francisco, a bit before noon today:
https://twitter.com/mathewkiang/status/ ... 6395773953

It's pretty haunting.

Yeah, that's approximately what I woke up to yesterday. Very surreal. It gradually got lighter over the course of the afternoon, and today it's more like an erie warm glow to the slightly brownish fog.

Salem, Oregon has it much worse though: https://twitter.com/search?q=salem%20oregon

(Not to mention all the places that are actually on fire!)

Just noticed a weird development in spam. A phishing e-mail arrived from "RĆN", purporting to come from RCN.

I noticed the same thing— weird diacritics— with a different company, a few days ago, though I deleted it without saving.

I wonder what this is for— it must be purposeful. It alerts people that something is wrong, but I imagine their target audience don't notice.

I've been contributing to Wikipedia for about a decade and this is the first time anyone's ever asked me to make an emergency edit.

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:40 pmI wonder what this is for— it must be purposeful.

Likely it just helps bypass spam filters, as many of them are probably fooled by diacritics ("RĆN" is recognized as different from "RCN", so it's let through into the main inbox).

I have noticed on Amazon when trying to buy sanitizing wipes that in addition to lots of things coming in weird multi-packs a lot of things had names with weird character substitutions in the product names and descriptions, of course to get around the attempts by Amazon's AI to associate groups of related products into categories by name, description, and quantity, and thus present the least expensive products to the consumer. And, of course, what did come up was invariably way over-priced.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:09 pm I've been contributing to Wikipedia for about a decade and this is the first time anyone's ever asked me to make an emergency edit.

I'm curious what kind of emergency calls for a Wikipedia edit.

Yalensky wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:12 am

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:09 pm I've been contributing to Wikipedia for about a decade and this is the first time anyone's ever asked me to make an emergency edit.

I'm curious what kind of emergency calls for a Wikipedia edit.

A friend of mine is a funeral director. Apparently she was doing some pre-planning with a local minor celebrity who told her he was annoyed his date of birth was incorrect on Wikipedia, so she sent out an appeal asking for anyone who could fix it. I never ever dreamed my wiki editing skills would ever be useful for fulfilling a dying man's wish.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:48 am

Yalensky wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:12 am

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:09 pm I've been contributing to Wikipedia for about a decade and this is the first time anyone's ever asked me to make an emergency edit.

I'm curious what kind of emergency calls for a Wikipedia edit.

A friend of mine is a funeral director. Apparently she was doing some pre-planning with a local minor celebrity who told her he was annoyed his date of birth was incorrect on Wikipedia, so she sent out an appeal asking for anyone who could fix it. I never ever dreamed my wiki editing skills would ever be useful for fulfilling a dying man's wish.

I'm unironically impressed.

Torco? Have you returned?