Zompist Bboard Again

Starbeam wrote: ↑Sat Sep 02, 2023 9:22 am is a three way contrast between /q/, /g/, and /ɢ/ possible? especially alongside /ɣ/

yes

I believe *bittá is from bitter. Rest is mostly correct except for *morda being from mordor. Also *tolna is from *sol the language really doesn't like initial *s or *ʃ and few roots have it. The speculation here is that they fortited in these positions. *kaddó is from the name of some native american language which might not actually have to much to do with horses.

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Sat Sep 02, 2023 9:43 am

Starbeam wrote: ↑Sat Sep 02, 2023 9:22 am is a three way contrast between /q/, /g/, and /ɢ/ possible? especially alongside /ɣ/

yes

Or PIE, the language is a ripoff through without certain aspects such as ablaut.

Reconstructed languages are not good evidence for phonological restrictions.

Mapos Buang

/p t ʃ~tʃ~tʲ k kʷ q/
/mb nd ndʒ ŋg ŋgʷ ɴɢ/
/β l̪ ɽ~ɺ ɣ w ʁ/
/m n ɲ ŋ ŋʷ ɴ/
/j/

/a ɛ ɔ e (ᵊ) o i u/
/aː ɛː ɔː eː oː iː uː/

[h] is appended after short word-final vowels.

Hooley exclusively uses the orthography, which is underspecified, so some non-phonemic schwa may actually be /ɛ/.

/aβeʁ timu ja nᵊndo βu ndʒen || aɽe nᵊmbe pariːq | ma ɽᵊɣa ma in | mbᵊjo nᵊndɔ || mᵊndɔ nᵊkᵊluɴɢin ji ɽaq βund qoq || nᵊqɔ nalu luː || ŋgʷe aɽe nᵊmbe Tuk Mbul muɴɢin | ma Mɔn Naʁɛtʃ kᵊtiβ || nᵊmbe tʃaŋga loːʁɔ nᵊndo mᵊdᵊtʃitʃ mboːq | lɔmba ja nᵊqɔ piɽ | ŋgᵊnalu luʁɔ ndᵊɣep mbᵊɣaɴ/

as What

/p t ʃ~tʃ~tʲ k kʷ q/ <p t ti ki ku k>
/mb nd ndʒ ŋg ŋgʷ ɴɢ/ <mb nd ndi nggi nggu ngg>
/β l̪ ɽ~ɺ ɣ w ʁ/ <b l d r u g>
/m n ɲ ŋ ŋʷ ɴ/ <m n ni ngi ngu ng>
/j/ <i>

/a ɛ ɔ e (ᵊ) o i u/ <a ai au e y eu i~w u>
/aː ɛː ɔː eː oː iː uː/ <â aî aû ê eû î~ŵ û>

Abeg timu ia nyndeu bu ndien. Ade nymbe parîk, ma dyra ma in, mbieu nyndau. Myndau nykïlunggin ï dak bund keuk. Nykau nalu lû. Nggue ade nymbe Tuk Mbul munggwn, ma Maun Nagaitì kïtwb. Nymbe tianggia deûgau nyndeu mydytít mbeûk, laumba ia nykau pid, nggynalu lugau dyrep mbyrang.

/p t ʃ~tʃ~tʲ k kʷ q/ ⟨p t s k kw q⟩
/mb nd ndʒ ŋg ŋgʷ ɴɢ/ ⟨b d j g gw nq⟩
/β l̪ ɽ~ɺ ɣ w ʁ/ ⟨v l r c w x⟩
/m n ɲ ŋ ŋʷ ɴ/ ⟨m n ñ ng ngw ń⟩
/j/ ⟨y⟩

/a ɛ ɔ e (ᵊ) o i u/ ⟨a é ó e á o i u⟩
/aː ɛː ɔː eː oː iː uː/ ⟨aa éé óó ee oo ii uu⟩

/aβeʁ timu ja nᵊndo vu ndʒen || aɽe nᵊmbe pariːq || ma ɽᵊɣa ma in || mbᵊjo nɛdɔ || mᵊdɔ nᵊkᵊluɴɢin ji ɽaq βud qoq || nᵊqɔ nalu luː || ŋgʷe aɽe nᵊmbe Tuk Mbul muɴɢin | ma Mɔn Naʁɛs kᵊtiβ || nᵊmbe saŋga loːʁɔ nᵊndo mᵊdᵊtʃitʃ mbooq | lɔmba ja nᵊqɔ piɽ | ŋgᵊnalu luʁɔ dᵊɣep bᵊɣaɴ/

Avex timu ya nádo vu jen. Are nábe pariiq. Ma ráca ma in. Báyo nédó. Mádó nákálunqin yi raq vud qoq. Náqó nalu luu. Gwe are nábe Tuk Bul munqin, ma Món Naxés kátiv. Nábe saga looxó nádo mádásis booq, loba ya náqó pir, gánalu luxó dácep bácań.

(I greatly dislike ⟨s⟩ for /tʃ/, but apparently the ‘official’ orthography uses it, and I can think of no better solution.)

/p t ʃ~tʃ~tʲ k kʷ q/ <p t ch k kw q>
/mb nd ndʒ ŋg ŋgʷ ɴɢ/ <mb nd nj nk nkw nq>
/β l̪ ɽ~ɺ ɣ w ʁ/ <w l r gh w x>
/m n ɲ ŋ ŋʷ ɴ/ <m n ny ng ngw nh>
/j/ <y>

/a ɛ ɔ e (ᵊ) o i u/ <a ë ö e ' o i u>
/aː ɛː ɔː eː oː iː uː/ <aa ëë öö ee oo ii uu>

Word-final h is written, but only after <a>, <e> and <o>. Writing <h> after word-final <a>, <e> and <o> is a common practice in Papua New Guinea, and given that here we have a reason for it, I've decided to include it.

/aβeʁ timu ja nᵊndo βu ndʒen || aɽe nᵊmbe pariːq | ma ɽᵊɣa ma in | mbᵊjo nᵊndɔ || mᵊndɔ nᵊkᵊluɴɢin ji ɽaq βund qoq || nᵊqɔ nalu luː || ŋgʷe aɽe nᵊmbe Tuk Mbul muɴɢin | ma Mɔn Naʁɛtʃ kᵊtiβ || nᵊmbe tʃaŋga loːʁɔ nᵊndo mᵊdᵊtʃitʃ mboːq | lɔmba ja nᵊqɔ piɽ | ŋgᵊnalu luʁɔ ndᵊɣep mbᵊɣaɴ/

Avex timu yah n'ndoh vu njen. Areh n'mbeh pariiq, mah r'ghah mah in, mb'yoh n'ndö. M'ndö n'k'lunqin yi raq vund qoq. N'qö nalu luu. Nkweh areh n'mbeh Tuk Mbul munqin, mah Mön Naxëch k'tiv. N'mbeh chankah looxö n'ndoh m'd'chich mbooq, lömbah yah n'qö pir, nk'nalu luxö nd'ghep mb'ghanh.

Karch wrote: ↑Sun Sep 03, 2023 8:20 am Writing <h> after word-final <a> and <e> is a common practice in Papua New Guinea […]

It is? I’ve never heard of that. Do you have any references?

/p t ʃ~tʃ~tʲ k kʷ q/ <p t s k kw c>
/mb nd ndʒ ŋg ŋgʷ ɴɢ/ <bb dd jj gg ggu hh>
/β l̪ ɽ~ɺ ɣ w ʁ/ <b d j g w h>
/m n ɲ ŋ ŋʷ ɴ/ <m n ni ng ngw nh>
/j/ <y>

/a ɛ ɔ e (ᵊ) o i u/ <a x q e z o i u>
/aː ɛː ɔː eː oː iː uː/ <al xl ql el ol il ul>

/aβeʁ timu ja nᵊndo βu ndʒen || aɽe nᵊmbe pariːq | ma ɽᵊɣa ma in | mbᵊjo nᵊndɔ || mᵊndɔ nᵊkᵊluɴɢin ji ɽaq βund qoq || nᵊqɔ nalu luː || ŋgʷe aɽe nᵊmbe Tuk Mbul muɴɢin | ma Mɔn Naʁɛtʃ kᵊtiβ || nᵊmbe tʃaŋga loːʁɔ nᵊndo mᵊndᵊtʃitʃ mboːq | lɔmba ja nᵊqɔ piɽ | ŋgᵊnalu luʁɔ ndᵊɣep mbᵊɣaɴ/

Abeh timu ya nzddo bu jjen. Aje nzbbe paricl, ma jzga ma in, bbzyo nzddq. Mzddq nzkzduhhin yi jac budd coc. Nzcq nadu dul. Ggwe aje nzbbe Tuk Bbul muhhin, ma Mqn Nahxs kztib. Nzbbe sagga dolhq nzddo mzddzsis bbocl, lqbba ya nzcq pij, ggznalu luhq ddzgep bbzganh.

(Used ⁿ for nasalisation because the usual diacritic won't work on my keyboard)

Old Suraic/Late Suraic Enɡlish (/ɨⁿlɨʃ lɛⁿwɨʒ/)
/p b t̪ d̪ t~h d k~x g/
/tʃ dʒ/
/m n/
/f v s z ʃ ʒ/
/l ɾ ɹ j w/
/ɐ ɛ e i ɨ ʏ~œ u o ɔ e͡ɪ/ + nasal
/ai oi au/ + nasal

Middle Suraic (/s̪uɾajeʃ neⁿwɨʃ/)
/p~b~m t̪~d̪~n̪ t~d~n k~ɡ~ŋ/
/tʃ~dʒ~ɲ/
/f s̪ z̺͇~s̺͇~ʐ~ʂ ʃ x h/
/l ɾ j w/
/a e i o u ɨ/ + nasal

Modern Suraic /suɾajɕu nipsa/
/p t k/
/t̪s̪ tɕ/
/m n ɲ ŋ/
/f s ʂ ɕ x h/
/l ɾ j w/
/a i u/ + lenɡth

Old Suraic/Late Suraic Enɡlish
/ɨ̃lɨʃ lɛ̃wɨʒ/ Urnhlursh Lanhwurzh

/p b t̪ d̪ t~h d k~x g/ <p b th dh tt d k g>
/tʃ dʒ/ <ch j>
/m n/ <m n>
/f v s z ʃ ʒ/ <f v s z sh zh>
/l ɾ ɹ j w/ <l t>
/ɐ ɛ e i ɨ ʏ~œ u o ɔ e͡ɪ/ <u a e i ur oo uh or ol o ee>
/ai oi au/ <ai ye oa>
+ nasal <Vnh>


Middle Suraic

/s̪uɾajeʃ nẽwɨʃ/ Surayesh Newish
/p~b~m t̪~d̪~n̪ t~d~n k~ɡ~ŋ/ <b~m t~nt d~n k~ng>
/tʃ~dʒ~ɲ/ <j~ny>
/f s̪ z̺͇~s̺͇~ʐ~ʂ ʃ x h/ <f s z sh g h>
/l ɾ j w/ <l r y w>
/a e i o u ɨ/ <a e ee o u i>
+ nasal <Vn> if not indicated by a preceding nasal grapheme (I'm assuming there's nasal harmony of some kind)


Modern Suraic

/suɾajɕu ni^?psa/ Surayshu Nipsa
/p t k/ <p d k>
/t̪s̪ tɕ/ <t j>
/m n ɲ ŋ/ <m n ny ng>
/f s ʂ ɕ x h/ <f s z sh g h>
/l ɾ j w/ <l r y w>
/a i u/ <a i u>
+ lenɡth <aa e o>

Old Suraic/Late Suraic Enɡlish (/ɨⁿlɨʃ lɛⁿwɨʒ/) <Inglish lengwizh>

/p b t̪ d̪ t~h d k~x g/ <p b th dh t d k g>
/tʃ dʒ/ <ch j>
/m n/ <m n>
/f v s z ʃ ʒ/ <f v s z sh zh>
/l ɾ ɹ j w/ <l đ r y w>
/ɐ ɛ e i ɨ ʏ~œ u o ɔ e͡ɪ/ <a e ë ee i u oo oe o ay>
/ai oi au/ <ie oy ow>
+ nasal <Vng>

Middle Suraic (/s̪uɾajeʃ neⁿwɨʃ/) <Surayesh newïsh>
/p~b~m t̪~d̪~n̪ t~d~n k~ɡ~ŋ/ <p~m th~nh t~n k~g>
/tʃ~dʒ~ɲ/ <c~j>
/f s̪ z̺͇~s̺͇~ʐ~ʂ ʃ x h/ <f s z sh kh h>
/l ɾ j w/ <l r y w>
/a e i o u ɨ/ + nasal <a e i o u ï> <Vn>, unless indicated by a nasal grapheme (which includes <g> and <j>)

Modern Suraic /suɾajɕu nipsa/ <Surayshu nipsa>
/p t k/ <p t k>
/t̪s̪ tɕ/ <ts ch>
/m n ɲ ŋ/ <m n ny ng>
/f s ʂ ɕ x h/ <f s ṣ sh x h>
/l ɾ j w/ <l r y w>
/a i u/ + length <a i u aa ii uu>

Middle something, the most appropriate version because it's the last time writing was reformed.
*p *t *tʲ *k
*tʃ
*ɸ *ɬ *s *sʲ *ʃ *x
*ɣʷ (w) *l *ɾ *ʝ (j)
*m *n *nʲ *ɲ

Stops have voiced allophones after nasals.

Vowels
*i *y *u
*e *ø *o
*a

*ie *ia *io
*ue *ua *uo
*ai *au
*oi

*kola “earth”
*uosxa “water”
*asi “fire”
*naasi “ice”
*tʃa.i "gold"
*ɸottʃo “sea”
*neksi “sky”
*uaiłi “star”
*auno “sun”
*kainnawal “moon”
*tʃaina “light”
*nʲaita “day”
*moi “grass”
*tʃøøta “blood”
*nandi “dog”
*ortʃuus “wolf”
*kaasa “fox”
*lakɾi “cat”
*ɲanga “weasel”
*sambor “seal”
*oxxa “otter”
*janna “salmon”
*pindi “bead”
*piliwa “person”
*nʲanʲaa “mother”
*tʲatʲaa “father”
*natia “brother”
*mianaa “sister”
*ku.aa “child”
*tøtja “son”
*sʲaixi “spear”
*ʃanaa “tinder”
*myty “car”
*waɬta “fireplace”

Numerals
*likkua “one”
*ɸa.i “two”
*tʃandi “three”
*asara “four”
*ɬai.a “five”
*mi.u “six”
*tʃiłta “seven”
*kasii “eight”
*numma “nine”
*amaa “ten”

/p t tʲ tʃ k/ p t ť c k (invariable)
/ɸ ɬ s sʲ ʃ x/ f j s š x h
/w l ɾ j/ w l r y
/m n nʲ ɲ/ m n ň g

/i y u e ø o a/ i ü u e ö o a
All diphthongs (and apparent long vowels) are represented with vowel letter sequences (aa ai ia etc); hiatus, where it occurs, is marked with ʼ.

/kola uosxa asi naasi tʃa.i ɸottʃo neksi uaiɬi¹ auno/
kola uosha asi naasi caʼi focco neksi uaiji auno

/kainnawal tʃaina nʲaita moi tʃøøta nanti ortʃuus kaasa/
kainnawal caina ňaita moi cööta nanti orcuus kaasa

/lakri ɲanka sampor oxxa jannapinti piliwa nʲanʲaa tʲatʲaa/
lakri ganka sampor ohha yannapinti piliwa ňaňaa ťaťaa

/natia mianaa ku.aa tøtja sʲaixi ʃanaa myty waɬta/
natia mianaa kuʼaa tötya šaihi xanaa mütü wajta

/likkua ɸa.i tʃanti asara ɬai.a mi.u tʃiɬta kasii numma amaa/
likkua faʼi canti asara jaiʼa miʼu cijta kasii numma amaa

¹ Is this word supposed to have a triphthong? I assume it is and so haven't inserted a hiatus or changed it to /waiɬi/ waiji.

You would be correct although in native words triphthongs only occur in two environments before *l and before *ɬ at least at this stage they open up to *m and *n and before all coronals as the language progresses through its stages and are eventually changed to just diphthongs (and long diphthongs shortened) as the language changes further.

Bacam
*b *d *g *gʷ
*p *t *k *kʷ
*v *(z) *ɣ
*f *s *x *h
*l
*ɾ
*j *w
*m *n *ŋ

Final *m and a nasal before a fricative were realised as nasalisation

*i *(y) *u
*e *o
*a

*z only occurs in native words when gemminated
*y only occurs in foreign words
Any vowel can be long and their are no diphthongs.

*bakam “name of the language”
*kalosia “divine islands”
*dada “father”
*sama “mother”
*zyis “thunder”
*amis “thin”
*ays “long”
*aluɾa: “dusk”
*silos "east"
*hylo:s “dawn”
*hilum “light”
*ilyno:s “moon”
*paɾa “sun”
*fas:e “priest”
*grida “enemy”
*fallat “son”
*fili: “daughter”
*loksia “grandson”
*mite “dog”
*fandisse “house”
*nasse “shrine”
*kyilos “temple”
*saxa “shirt”
*akʷa: “water”
*gato “fire”
*tazzani “to dazzle”
*ruzzo “king”
*kalus “chief”
*hynto:s “owl”
*lo:kiwa “eye”
*antre “man”
*hylos “soul”
*ani:ma: “spirit/soul”
*lyyko:s “wolf”
*valasi “fox”
*valasi:nie “vixen”
*to:ɾa “strong”
*to:ɾiso: “bull”
*dayze: “beautiful”
*dayze:nia “ermine”
*ɣansti: “bat”
*loko:n “hound”
*lukkon “marten”
*kimeŋki “rabbit”
*tuŋa “small fish sp”

Bacam
*b *d *g *gʷ b d g gu
*p *t *k *kʷ p t c qu
*v *(z) *ɣ v z gh
*f *s *x *h f s ch h
*l l
*ɾ r
*j *w j w
*m *n *ŋ m n cn

*i *(y) *u i y u
*e *o e o
*a a

Long vowels are marked with an acute.


*bakam “name of the language” : Bacam
*kalosia “divine islands” Calosia
*dada “father” Dada
*sama “mother” Sama
*zyis “thunder” Zyis
*amis “thin” Amis
*ays “long” Ays
*aluɾa: “dusk” Alurá
*silos "east" Silos
*hylo:s “dawn” Hylós
*hilum “light” Hilum
*ilyno:s “moon” ilynós
*paɾa “sun” Para
*fas:e “priest” Fasse
*grida “enemy” Grida
*fallat “son” Fallat
*fili: “daughter” Filí
*loksia “grandson” Locsia
*mite “dog” Mite
*fandisse “house” Fandisse
*nasse “shrine” Nasse
*kyilos “temple” Kylios
*saxa “shirt” Sacha
*akʷa: “water” aquá
*gato “fire” Gato
*tazzani “to dazzle” Tazzani
*ruzzo “king” Ruzzo
*kalus “chief” Calus
*hynto:s “owl” Hyntós
*lo:kiwa “eye” Lóciwa
*antre “man” Antre
*hylos “soul” Hylos
*ani:ma: “spirit/soul” Anímá
*lyyko:s “wolf” Lýcós
*valasi “fox” Valasi
*valasi:nie “vixen” Valasínie
*to:ɾa “strong” Tóra
*to:ɾiso: “bull” Tórisó
*dayze: “beautiful” dayzé
*dayze:nia “ermine” dayzénia
*ɣansti: “bat” ghanstí
*loko:n “hound” locón
*lukkon “marten” luccon
*kimeŋki “rabbit” cimenci
*tuŋa “small fish sp” tucna

Modern Niegne
*p *t *ɖ *k
*f *s *ʃ *x
*ɥ *w *l *ɻ *j *ʀ
*m *n *ɳ *ɲ

Edit: forgot the vowels
*i *y *u
*e *ø *o
*ɛ *œ *ɔ
*æ *ɑ

In addition to the following vowels their were numerous diphthongs and triphthongs consisting of a glide + vowel + glide maximally
The high mid vowels exist only in initial syllables before a non alveolar consonant and derive from what are historically long vowels
Modern length in the modern language mainly occurs in monosyllables and is a modern phenomena deriving from need to disambiguate homophones

*ɛ̃ *œ̃ *ɔ̃
*æ̃

There are four nasal vowels which contrast with nasal vowel + final nasal finally and before *ʃ. Otherwise occluded nasals appear before stops and nasal vowels appear before other consonants
Both vowel + nasal and nasal vowel sequences only occur with these four vowels except in a few loanwords


Stops are voiced intervocalically and after nasals. *ɖ can be analysed as underlying *ʈ as it only occurs intervocalically

*bakam “name of the language” > *njɛ̃ɲʃ
*kalosia “divine islands” > *kæwœsi
*dada “father” > *nɑ
*sama “mother” > *sjɛ̃m
*zyis “thunder” > *ʃæj “stroke”
*amis “thin” > *jɛ̃
*aluɾa: “dusk” > *jɛwɛʀ “twilight”
*silos “east” > *siwɔ
*hylo:s “dawn” > *ju “light
*hilum “light” > *hiju “dawn” literally first+light
*ilyno:s “moon” > *hœlɛ̃
*paɾa “sun” > *pjɛʀ “
*fas:e “priest” > *fɑs
*gɾida “enemy” > *xjæ
*fallat “son” > *fɔlt
*fili: “daughter” > *fjɛl
*loksia “grandson” > *lwɑʃ
*mite “dog” > *mɛ̃
*fandisse “house” > *fæ̃sjɛ
*nasse “shrine” > *nɛ “gift”
*kyilos “temple” > *kjɛ “temple”
*saxa “shirt” > *sɛk “dress”
*akʷa: “water” > *ɛm
*gato “fire” > *ɲɛ̃
*tazzani “to dazzle” > *tɛsɛ̃
*ɾuzzo “king” > *ʀœ
*kalus “chief” > *kœ:
*hynto:s “owl” > *ɛ̃: “owl” and *ɛ̃ “bird”
*lo:kiwa “eye” > *lœ̃ŋju
*antre “man” > *hæ̃ʀ
*hylos “soul” > *il
*ani:ma: “spirit/soul” > *hɛ̃nɛ̃m
*ly:ko:s “wolf” > *li
*valasi “fox” > *fɛlɛ
*valasi:nie “vixen” > *fɛlɛʃjɛ̃
*to:ɾa “strong” > *twɑʀ
*to:ɾiso: “bull” > *twɑʀi
*dayze: “beautiful” > *nɛj
*dayze:nia “ermine” > *nɛjʃœ̃ni
*ɣansti: “bat” > *kɛ̃
*loko:n “hound” > *lɔ̃
*lukkon “marten” > *lɥi
*kimeŋki “rabbit” > *kimɛ̃
*tuŋa “small fish sp” > *tœ̃

*tollus “depths” > *tu “collar” (meaning shift is via poetry middle niegne *min ha tu “dog’s depths”) also *lwatu “to enjoin/marry” from old niegne *loj “to join” derived from a marriage custom of a wife wearing a choker)
*gnestV “to know” > *ɲe
*kalka “to rise.f” > *kok
*torkV “to bite” > *to
*morja “marsh” > *mwɑʀ
*kalsaka “desert” > *køk
*kagima “great” > *kæ̃jm
*maljan “bright” > *mɔs “sunny”
*wai “path” > *mæ

MNIE >*tollus > *tɔɖu “abyss”
MNIE >*donna “master” > *toɲa

the council is discussing the representation of tone

/p b mb pɕ bʑ mbʑ t̪ d̪ nd̪ tʂ dʐ ndʐ tɕ dʑ ndʑ k g ŋg/ <p b mb psh bzh mbzh t d nd tr dr ndr ch j nj k g ng>
/f s ʂ ɕ x/ <f s shr sh h>
/m n̪ n ɲ ŋ/ <m n nn ny ngʼ>
/a ɒ e ə o i u ɿ v̩/ <a au e/ie e o i u ze vu> + [ʅ] <er> (allophone of /ɿ/ after retroflexes)
/˩ ˧ ˥ ˩˥/ <. , ! ?> (nonfinal tonelessness <->)
nasalization <n> (occasionally spreads; unwritten)

/m̩˩˥dʑi˥je j̃ĩ˧w̃ɒ̃˩je dʙʉ˥ɲi˩˥ɲi˩˥mɒ˩je˥ j̃ĩ˥w̃ɒ̃˩tɕi˩˥ ji˥pɕæ˥je ka˥tʂʐ̩˩ j̃ĩ˩tʂə˩je˧ j̃ĩtɕæ̃˧ ɕæ˩ɕæ˩ ⁿdʐa˩˥jʉ˥ w̃ũ˧tsə˧je tɒ˧]
M?ji!ye yin,waun.ye dvu!nyi?nyi?mau.ye! yin!waun.chi? yin!psha!ye ka!trer. yin-chan, sha.sha. ndra?yu! wun,tse,ye tau,