Zompist Bboard Again

sth i've often considered but never actually used was using Vh for one tone and then hV for the other. however this quickly gets too ugly to manage. here's a compromise:

/p b mb pɕ bʑ mbʑ t̪ d̪ nd̪ tʂ dʐ ndʐ tɕ dʑ ndʑ k g ŋg/ <p b mb py by mby t d nd tr dr ndr ch j nj k g ngg>
/f s ʂ ɕ x/ <f s shr sh x>
/m n̪ n ɲ ŋ/ <m n nh ny ng>
/a ɒ e ə o i u ɿ v̩/ <a aw e ee o i u iy vu>
/˩ ˧ ˥ ˩˥/ <ah a â âh>
+ nasalization <n>

[m̩˩˥dʑi˥je j̃ĩ˧w̃ɒ̃˩je dʙʉ˥ɲi˩˥ɲi˩˥mɒ˩je˥ j̃ĩ˥w̃ɒ̃˩tɕi˩˥ ji˥pɕæ˥je ka˥tʂʐ̩˩ j̃ĩ˩tʂə˩je˧ j̃ĩtɕæ̃˧ ɕæ˩ɕæ˩ ⁿdʐa˩˥jʉ˥ w̃ũ˧tsə˧je tɒ˧]
'Mhjîye yinwawhnye dvûnyîhnyîhmawhyê yînwawhchîh yîpyâye kâtriyh yihntreehye yinchan shahshah ndrâhyû wuntseeye taw.

or alternatively one could mark tones as i do in kasaung, i.e. /˩ ˧ ˥ ˩˥/ <,a a 'a :a>
:M'jiye yin,wawnye 'dvu:nyi:nyi,maw'ye 'yin,waw:chi 'yi'pyaye 'ka,triy ,yin,treeye yinchan ,sha,sha :ndra'yu wuntseeye taw.

or just straight up write ziwan as kasaung
:M'dyiye yin,wânye 'dû:nyi:nyi,mâ'ye 'yin,wâ:cyi 'yi'pyaye 'ka,chî ,yin,chiiye yinchan ,shya,shya :nja'yu wuntsiiye tâ.

could do Gwoyeu Romatzyh

/p b mb pɕ bʑ mbʑ t̪ d̪ nd̪ ts dz ndz tʂ dʐ ndʐ tɕ dʑ ndʑ k g ŋg/ <p b mb pi bi mbi t d nd ts tz ndz ch j nj chi ji nji k g ngg>
/f s ʂ ɕ x/ <f s sh shi h>
/m n̪ n ɲ ŋ/ <m n nh ni ng>
/a ɒ e ə o i u ɿ v̩/ <a au ie e ue i u z v>

˧: basic form
˩: i u -> y w / z v -> zi vu / -r
˥: i u -> e o / z v -> ze ve / VV
˩˥: n -> m / -h
-: <V'> or <-(C)V> (not <.> because there are more toneless suffixes)

[m̩˩˥dʑi˥je j̃ĩ˧w̃ɒ̃˩je dʙʉ˥ɲi˩˥ɲi˩˥mɒ˩je˥ j̃ĩ˥w̃ɒ̃˩tɕi˩˥ ji˥pɕæ˥je ka˥tʂʐ̩˩ j̃ĩ˩tʂə˩je˧ j̃ĩtɕæ̃˧ ɕæ˩ɕæ˩ ⁿdʐa˩˥jʉ˥ w̃ũ˧tsə˧je tɒ˧]

Mhjii-ye yinwawn-ye dvenihnihmawyee yiinwawnchih yiipea-ye kaachzi yirnchian shyashya njahyuu wuntze-ye tau.

*ᵐb *ⁿd *ᵑɡ
*b *d *ɡ *ɡʷ
*p *t *k *kʷ
*ⁿdz *ⁿdzʷ *dz *dzʷ *ts *tsʷ *c
*ɸ *ð *x *xʷ *h
*z *zʷ *zʲ *ʒ *ʒʷ
*s *sʷ *sʲ *ʃ *ʃʷ
*l *lʷ *ʎ
*ɬ *ɬʷ *ç
*w *r *j
*m *n *nʲ *ɲ *nʷ
*β̃ *l̃ *j̃
50 Consonants

*i *u
*ɪ *ʊ
*e *o
*a
Any vowel can be long over overlong but overlong vowels were rare
All differing vowels belonged to separate syllables

*j̃ai *kagato *ajeja *kateɬo *sikʷo *çoja *poi *ⁿdeda *Ĩe:ma *tako:nʲo
*tsubi *ɲo *gʷulo *ba *me:manʲo *ke:zaʒo *gika *giʎi
*xiiwi *aleo *o:sa *eseye:ʒima *sʲiizoore *sʲiizuduca *i:na
*xʷaça *lʷaðɪte *ⁿdzʷe:: *ɸaita: *tsʷaᵑɡa *ᵐbuwura *baβ̃i *muna *ɬɪ:ʒʷuta

/ᵐb ⁿd ᵑɡ/ ⟨mb nd ng⟩
/b d ɡ ɡʷ/ ⟨b d g gw⟩
/p t k kʷ/ ⟨p t k kw⟩
/ⁿdz ⁿdzʷ dz dzʷ ts tsʷ c/ ⟨nj njw j jw c cw ć⟩
/ɸ ð x xʷ h/ ⟨f đ x xw h⟩
/z zʷ zʲ ʒ ʒʷ/ ⟨z zw zy ź źw⟩
/s sʷ sʲ ʃ ʃʷ/ ⟨s sw sy ś św⟩
/l lʷ ʎ/ ⟨l lw lˊ⟩
/ɬ ɬʷ ç/ ⟨lh lwh ç⟩
/w r j/ ⟨w r y⟩
/m n nʲ ɲ nʷ/ ⟨m n ny ń nw⟩
/β̃ l̃ j̃/ ⟨w̃ ɫ ỹ⟩

/i u/ ⟨i u⟩
/ɪ ʊ/ ⟨ì ù⟩
/e o/ ⟨e o⟩
/a/ ⟨a⟩

Vowel length: /a aː aːː/ ⟨a aa aaa⟩

/j̃ai kagato ayeya kateɬo sikʷo çoya poi ᶯdeda Ĩe:ma tako:nʲo/
/tsubi ɲo gʷulo ba me:manʲo ke:zaʒo gika giʎi/
/xiiwi aleo o:sa eseye:ʒima sʲiizoore sʲiizuduca i:na/
/xʷaça lʷaðɪte ⁿdzʷe:: ɸaita: tsʷaᵑɡa ᵐbuwura baβ̃i muna ɬɪ:ʒʷuta/

ỹai kagato ayeya katelho sikwo çoya poi ndeda ɫeema takoonyo
cubi ńo gwulo ba meemanyo keezaźo gika gilˊi
xiiwi aleo oosa eseyeeźima syiizoore syiizuduća iina
xwaça lwađìte njweee faitaa cwanga mbuwura baw̃i muna lhììźwuta

(Assuming that /y/ was meant to be /j/, /Ĩ/ should be /l̃/, and /ᶯd/ should be /ⁿd/)

This one's actually a real language.

m mˤ n nˤ
b pʰ pː bˤ pˤ pːˤ pʼ d tʰ tː dˤ tˤ tːˤ tʼ ɡ kʰ kː kʼ qʰ qː qʼ ʡ ʔ
dz dzˤ tsʰ tsː tsˤ tsːˤ tsʼ dʒ dʒˤ tʃʰ tʃˤ tʃʼ
z zˤ s sˤ ʒ ʒˤ ʃ ʃˤ x ʜ h ʁ
w wˤ l lˤ r̥ r rˤ j

ɪ iː y yː ʊ uː
je ie ɥø yø wo uo
e̞ e̞ː ø øː o̞ o̞ː
ə ɑː

Clusters of /x l r/+ any consonants are allowed, or clusters of uvular + any obstruent of the same MOA.

Knit Tie wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 12:58 am This one's actually a real language.

Let me guess:
Anyway, one attempt:

/m mˤ n nˤ/ ⟨m ṃ n ṇ⟩
/b pʰ pː bˤ pˤ pːˤ pʼ d tʰ tː dˤ tˤ tːˤ tʼ ɡ kʰ kː kʼ qʰ qː qʼ ʡ ʔ/ ⟨b p pp ḅ ṗ ṗṗ pʼ d t tt ḍ ṭ ṭṭ tʼ g k kk kʼ q qq qʼ q̇ ḳ⟩
/dz dzˤ tsʰ tsː tsˤ tsːˤ tsʼ dʒ dʒˤ tʃʰ tʃˤ tʃʼ/ ⟨ƶ ƶ̣ c cc c̣ c̣c̣ cʼ j j̈ č č̣ čʼ⟩
/z zˤ s sˤ ʒ ʒˤ ʃ ʃˤ x ʜ h ʁ/ ⟨z ẓ s ṣ ʒ ʒ̇ š ṣ̌ x x̣ h ḥ⟩
/w wˤ l lˤ r̥ r rˤ j/ ⟨w ẉ l ḷ ř r ṛ y⟩

/ɪ iː y yː ʊ uː/ ⟨i ii ü üü u uu⟩
/je ie ɥø yø wo uo/ ⟨ye ie yö üö wo uo⟩
/e̞ e̞ː ø øː o̞ o̞ː/ ⟨e ee ö öö o oo⟩
/ə ɑː/ ⟨a aa⟩


Or here’s a slightly different approach for the consonants:

/m mˤ n nˤ/ ⟨m mħ n nħ⟩
/b pʰ pː bˤ pˤ pːˤ pʼ d tʰ tː dˤ tˤ tːˤ tʼ ɡ kʰ kː kʼ qʰ qː qʼ ʡ ʔ/ ⟨b p pp bħ pħ ppħ pʼ d t tt dħ tħ ttħ tʼ g k kk kʼ q qq qʼ qħ ꝗ⟩
/dz dzˤ tsʰ tsː tsˤ tsːˤ tsʼ dʒ dʒˤ tʃʰ tʃˤ tʃʼ/ ⟨ƶ ƶħ c cc cħ ccħ cʼ j jħ č cħ čʼ⟩
/z zˤ s sˤ ʒ ʒˤ ʃ ʃˤ x ʜ h ʁ/ ⟨z zħ s sħ ʒ ʒħ š šħ x ħ h ǥ⟩
/w wˤ l lˤ r̥ r rˤ j/ ⟨w wħ l lħ ř r rħ y⟩

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 2:48 am

Knit Tie wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 12:58 am This one's actually a real language.

Let me guess:

More: show

Chechen?

I'd guess so, too.

made it through with no diacritics on the consonants!! it should be free of any ambiguity if i'm reading the cluster constraints correctly

/m n b d g h ʔ z s ʒ ʃ x w l r j/ <m n b d g h ' z s j c x w l r y>
/pʰ tʰ kʰ qʰ/ <p t k q>
/ʜ ʡ ʁ/ <xq hq gq>
/dz tsʰ dʒ tʃʰ r̥/ <dz ts dj tc rh>
/mˤ nˤ bˤ pˤ dˤ tˤ zˤ sˤ ʒˤ ʃˤ wˤ lˤ rˤ dzˤ tsˤ dʒˤ tʃˤ/ <mq nq bq pq dq tq zq sq jq cq wq lq rq dzq tsq djq tcq>
/pː tː kː qː tsː/ <pp tt kk qq ss>
/pːˤ tːˤ tsːˤ/ <ppq ttq ssq>
/pʼ tʼ kʼ qʼ tsʼ tʃʼ/ <p' t' k' q' ts' tc'>
/lq rq/ <l-q r-q>

/ə e̞ ɪ o̞ ø ʊ y/ <a e i o ö u ü>
/ɑː e̞ː iː o̞ː øː uː yː/ <aa ee ii oo öö uu üü>
/je ɥø wo/ <ye yö wo>
/ie yø uo/ <ie üö uo>

That was indeed Chechen.

And now let's try my native language.

/m mʲ n nʲ/
/p pʲ b bʲ t tʲ d dʲ k ɡ/
/ts tɕ/
/f fʲ v vʲ s sʲ z zʲ ʂ ʐ ɕ x/
/l lʲ r rʲ j/
/i a u e o/

And its hypothetical future version, for a conlang

/m n ɲ ŋ/
/b p d~dʑ t~tɕ ɡ k/
/ts/
/f s~ʃ z~ʒ x/
/l ʎ r ɽ w j/
/i ɯ y u o ø e ə æ ɑ/

Knit Tie wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 6:23 am And now let's try my native language.

/m mʲ n nʲ/
/p pʲ b bʲ t tʲ d dʲ k ɡ/
/ts tɕ/
/f fʲ v vʲ s sʲ z zʲ ʂ ʐ ɕ x/
/l lʲ r rʲ j/
/i a u e o/

Let me guess - your native language is Russian.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 9:07 pm

Knit Tie wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 6:23 am And now let's try my native language.

/m mʲ n nʲ/
/p pʲ b bʲ t tʲ d dʲ k ɡ/
/ts tɕ/
/f fʲ v vʲ s sʲ z zʲ ʂ ʐ ɕ x/
/l lʲ r rʲ j/
/i a u e o/

Let me guess - your native language is Russian.

Yep

Knit Tie wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 6:23 am That was indeed Chechen.

And now let's try my native language.

/m mʲ n nʲ/
/p pʲ b bʲ t tʲ d dʲ k ɡ/
/ts tɕ/
/f fʲ v vʲ s sʲ z zʲ ʂ ʐ ɕ x/
/l lʲ r rʲ j/
/i a u e o/

Cheating, as I'm using all the info that Knit Tie didn't give:

⟨ı a u ə o⟩
/j/ plus vowel, or vowel after palatalised consonant = ⟨i ä ü e ö⟩

⟨m m n n⟩
⟨p p b b t t d d k g⟩
⟨c ç⟩
⟨f f v v s s z z x j ş h⟩
⟨l l r r (y)⟩

Palatalised consonants with no following vowel are written with a following ⟨y⟩.

/ij/ is written ⟨iy⟩.

Stress on polysyllabic words, if not penultimate, shown with acutes (or double acutes). Stressed ı = ⟨î⟩.

And its hypothetical future version, for a conlang

/m n ɲ ŋ/
/b p d~dʑ t~tɕ ɡ k/
/ts/
/f s~ʃ z~ʒ x/
/l ʎ r ɽ w j/
/i ɯ y u o ø e ə æ ɑ/

m n nh q
b p d t g k
c
f s z x
l lh r rj w y
i u̇ ü u o ö e ë ä a

sasasha wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2023 9:05 am ⟨ı a u ə o⟩
/j/ plus vowel, or vowel after palatalised consonant = ⟨i ä ü e ö⟩

This is the first place I've seen dotless <i> used outside of a Latin-script orthography for a Turkic language.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2023 10:21 am

sasasha wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2023 9:05 am ⟨ı a u ə o⟩
/j/ plus vowel, or vowel after palatalised consonant = ⟨i ä ü e ö⟩

This is the first place I've seen dotless <i> used outside of a Latin-script orthography for a Turkic language.

I use ⟨ı⟩ quite a lot, especially when I want to represent a muddy epenthetic vowel, because its width makes it look suitably insignificant/featureless. It seemed useful here as Russian ⟨и⟩ AFAIK doesn't quite fit in the ‘iotizing’ set ⟨е ё я ю⟩, but is otherwise still the counterpart of a definitely non-iotizing vowel. If two dots is the iotizing sign, then one dot is... half the iotizing sign? I should probably have stuck with ⟨e ë⟩ for /e ʲe/ to make that more symmetrical...

sasasha wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2023 10:58 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2023 10:21 am

sasasha wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2023 9:05 am ⟨ı a u ə o⟩
/j/ plus vowel, or vowel after palatalised consonant = ⟨i ä ü e ö⟩

This is the first place I've seen dotless <i> used outside of a Latin-script orthography for a Turkic language.

I use ⟨ı⟩ quite a lot, especially when I want to represent a muddy epenthetic vowel, because its width makes it look suitably insignificant/featureless. It seemed useful here as Russian ⟨и⟩ AFAIK doesn't quite fit in the ‘iotizing’ set ⟨е ё я ю⟩, but is otherwise still the counterpart of a definitely non-iotizing vowel. If two dots is the iotizing sign, then one dot is... half the iotizing sign? I should probably have stuck with ⟨e ë⟩ for /e ʲe/ to make that more symmetrical...

I like your reasoning for ⟨ı⟩, but in this case I think you could easily justify ⟨ë ï⟩ for ⟨э ы⟩. The diaeresis can then be thought of as a "reversal" symbol: it iotizes back/central vowels and de-iotizes front ones.

äreo wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2023 12:14 pm

sasasha wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2023 10:58 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2023 10:21 am

This is the first place I've seen dotless <i> used outside of a Latin-script orthography for a Turkic language.

I use ⟨ı⟩ quite a lot, especially when I want to represent a muddy epenthetic vowel, because its width makes it look suitably insignificant/featureless. It seemed useful here as Russian ⟨и⟩ AFAIK doesn't quite fit in the ‘iotizing’ set ⟨е ё я ю⟩, but is otherwise still the counterpart of a definitely non-iotizing vowel. If two dots is the iotizing sign, then one dot is... half the iotizing sign? I should probably have stuck with ⟨e ë⟩ for /e ʲe/ to make that more symmetrical...

I like your reasoning for ⟨ı⟩, but in this case I think you could easily justify ⟨ë ï⟩ for ⟨э ы⟩. The diaeresis can then be thought of as a "reversal" symbol: it iotizes back/central vowels and de-iotizes front ones.

That works too! I hate ⟨ï⟩, though. In most fonts its diaerises bump uncomfortably close to other things.

A fun/naughty thing to do would be to insist on ⟨ə ı̣⟩ for ⟨э ы⟩: de-iotization is then a 180° flip...

sasasha wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2023 12:35 pm

äreo wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2023 12:14 pm

sasasha wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2023 10:58 am

I use ⟨ı⟩ quite a lot, especially when I want to represent a muddy epenthetic vowel, because its width makes it look suitably insignificant/featureless. It seemed useful here as Russian ⟨и⟩ AFAIK doesn't quite fit in the ‘iotizing’ set ⟨е ё я ю⟩, but is otherwise still the counterpart of a definitely non-iotizing vowel. If two dots is the iotizing sign, then one dot is... half the iotizing sign? I should probably have stuck with ⟨e ë⟩ for /e ʲe/ to make that more symmetrical...

I like your reasoning for ⟨ı⟩, but in this case I think you could easily justify ⟨ë ï⟩ for ⟨э ы⟩. The diaeresis can then be thought of as a "reversal" symbol: it iotizes back/central vowels and de-iotizes front ones.

That works too! I hate ⟨ï⟩, though. In most fonts its diaerises bump uncomfortably close to other things.

A fun/naughty thing to do would be to insist on ⟨ə ı̣⟩ for ⟨э ы⟩: de-iotization is then a 180° flip...

Maybe ï works better at the lower frequency we see it in, say, French rather than the frequency we would see it in Russian in this case. And yeah, flipping would be funny. Reminds me of how Canadian Aboriginal syllabic characters rotate for different vowels.

Trawɐvistɔe rastevie, dɔstiganᔕee w wᴉsɔtu bɔꞁee 1 metra. Stebeꞁ gɔlᴉj, rebristᴉj. ʞasʇ stebꞁɐ, pɔgru𑨖cvvaɐ w pɔʞwu, wᴉpuskaet dꞁivvᴉe pɔbegi (dꞁivɔj 15—20, u vekɔtɔrᴉh sɔrtɔw 40—50 sm). Ꞁist kartɔfeꞁɐ tcmvɔ-zeꞁcvᴉj, prerᴉwistɔ-veparvɔperistɔrasseʞcvvᴉj, sɔstɔit iz kɔveʞvɔj dɔꞁi, veskɔꞁkih par (3—7) bɔkɔwᴉh dɔꞁej, razmeᔕcvvᴉh ɔdva prɔtiw drugɔj, i prɔme𑨖utɔʞvᴉh dɔꞁek me𑨖du vimi. Νeparvaɐ dɔꞁɐ vazᴉwaetsɐ kɔveʞvɔj, parvᴉe dɔꞁi iment pɔrɐdkɔwᴉe vazwaviɐ — perwaɐ para, wtɔraɐ para i t. d. (sʞct wedctsɐ ɔt kɔveʞvɔj dɔꞁi). Dɔꞁi i dɔꞁki sidɐt va ster𑨖eʌkah, prikrepꞁcvvᴉh k ster𑨖vn, vi𑨖vɐɐ ʞasʇ kɔtɔrɔgɔ perehɔdit w ʞereƨɔk. ɔkɔlɔ dɔꞁej par razmeᔕantsɐ eᔕc bɔꞁee melkie dɔꞁki. Tswetki belᴉe, rɔzɔwᴉe i fiɔꞁetɔwᴉe, sɔbravᴉ ᔕitkɔm va werhuƨke stebꞁɐ, ʞaƨeʞka i wevʞik pɐtirazdeꞁvᴉe. Plɔd — mvɔgɔsemɐvvaɐ, tcmvɔ-zeꞁcvaɐ, ɐdɔwitaɐ ɐgɔda diametrɔm 2 sm, pɔ fɔrme vapɔmivanᔕaɐ maꞁeʌkij pɔmidɔr. W zeꞁcvᴉh wegetatiwvᴉh ʞastɐh rasteviɐ sɔder𑨖itsɐ alkalɔid sɔlaviv, kɔtɔrᴉj slu𑨖it dꞁɐ zaᔕitᴉ rasteviɐ ɔt pɔra𑨖eviɐ bakteriɐmi i vekɔtɔrᴉmi widami vasekɔmᴉh. W swɐzi s эtim pɔzeꞁevewƨie klubvi kartɔfeꞁɐ vesъedɔbvᴉ, hɔtɐ udaꞁevie pɔwerhvɔsti va zvaʞiteꞁvun glubivu (bɔꞁee 1 sm) i bɔꞁee dꞁiteꞁvaɐ termɔɔbrabɔtka sɔhravɐnt egɔ sъedɔbvɔsʇ.

(^:

For a moment there I was honestly worried I’d had a stroke. (Luckily, then I noticed the username.)

That looks Slavic to me, but I'm not sure if it's Russian per se (those <w>s appear non-Russian to me).