Zompist Bboard Again

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 1:38 am Graeber & Wengrow, in The Dawn of Everything, make the case that Native American society was far more benign than European: leaders were less despotic, people were less greedy, there were no beggars because people helped each other out.

Might this have had something to do with population density? Native Americans developed similarly abusive systems when they built large cities and empires, like in Mesoamerica.

BTW, William Sidis, who is reported, probably incorrectly, to have the highest IQ ever recorded, wrote an unpublished manuscript about how the "red race" was the true master race: http://www.mortenbrask.com/wp-content/u ... -SIDIS.pdf IIRC his favorite federation was the Penacook, followed by the Iroquois.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:06 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 1:38 am Graeber & Wengrow, in The Dawn of Everything, make the case that Native American society was far more benign than European: leaders were less despotic, people were less greedy, there were no beggars because people helped each other out.

Might this have had something to do with population density? Native Americans developed similarly abusive systems when they built large cities and empires, like in Mesoamerica.

Not to be snarky, but this is like asking if Newton had maybe considered the idea that large bodies attract each other. Why some societies are more benign than others, and whether the benign ones can be scaled up, is precisely what their book is about.

I wrote quite a bit about it here.

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:39 pm Not to be snarky, but this is like asking if Newton had maybe considered the idea that large bodies attract each other. Why some societies are more benign than others, and whether the benign ones can be scaled up, is precisely what their book is about.

I wrote quite a bit about it here.

Yeah, but they can't possibly have concluded that Native American societies were relatively benign because of their religion! Mizos also say there was no crime in their communities before the Indian government herded them into cities in large numbers.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:45 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:39 pm Not to be snarky, but this is like asking if Newton had maybe considered the idea that large bodies attract each other. Why some societies are more benign than others, and whether the benign ones can be scaled up, is precisely what their book is about.

I wrote quite a bit about it here.

Yeah, but they can't possibly have concluded that Native American societies were relatively benign because of their religion!

They didn't say that, nor did I.

I just got my new copy of Gödel, Escher, Bach!

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 4:06 pm I just got my new copy of Gödel, Escher, Bach!

I once started reading it, and got distracted by something else. Is it mostly about logic and self-reference paradoxes?

rotting bones wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:06 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 1:38 am Graeber & Wengrow, in The Dawn of Everything, make the case that Native American society was far more benign than European: leaders were less despotic, people were less greedy, there were no beggars because people helped each other out.

Might this have had something to do with population density? Native Americans developed similarly abusive systems when they built large cities and empires, like in Mesoamerica.

Oh, that reminds me I have to read that book. I skimmed the first chapter a while back I think.

Mexica culture feels similar to various Northern American cultures in some ways. Ultimately, of course, they descended from Northern Americans, plus they were relative newcomers to the whole 'state' thing. I can mention the importance of rhetoric. More to the point, there is a general feeling they weren't always very comfortable with great wealth disparity -- they did hold large redistribution feasts, for instance.
In Northern America there was the Mississipian culture, which probably left cultural traces as well.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 4:50 pm In Northern America there was the Mississipian culture, which probably left cultural traces as well.

I did briefly study the Mississippian culture. Weren't they the ones with the Southern Death Cult?

rotting bones wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 4:08 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 4:06 pm I just got my new copy of Gödel, Escher, Bach!

I once started reading it, and got distracted by something else. Is it mostly about logic and self-reference paradoxes?

It is about how self-reference and paradoxes arising therefrom in the form of "strange loops", as Hofstadter terms it, is the root of consciousness.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 7:28 pm It is about how self-reference and paradoxes arising therefrom in the form of "strange loops", as Hofstadter terms it, is the root of consciousness.

This is the one, right? https://archive.org/download/GEBen_201404

I don't know if I'll have time to read it now. I'll add it to the pile.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 7:32 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 7:28 pm It is about how self-reference and paradoxes arising therefrom in the form of "strange loops", as Hofstadter terms it, is the root of consciousness.

This is the one, right? https://archive.org/download/GEBen_201404

I don't know if I'll have time to read it now. I'll add it to the pile.

Yeah, that's it. It's not the version, from looking at the cover, that I got today or the version I had as a kid, I should note, but from reading the foreword of the copy I got today Hofstadter did not touch the main text of the English version even when things could have been updated (e.g. he noted that he got wrong the prediction that computers would never beat the best humans at chess until they were practically sentient).

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 7:43 pm Yeah, that's it. It's not the version, from looking at the cover, that I got today or the version I had as a kid, I should note, but from reading the foreword of the copy I got today Hofstadter did not touch the main text of the English version even when things could have been updated (e.g. he noted that he got wrong the prediction that computers would never beat the best humans at chess until they were practically sentient).

Internet Archive has two versions: https://archive.org/search?query=creato ... stadter%22

I don't know if they're different.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 6:42 pm

Ares Land wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 4:50 pm In Northern America there was the Mississipian culture, which probably left cultural traces as well.

I did briefly study the Mississippian culture. Weren't they the ones with the Southern Death Cult?

That's the one. Though I don't know if the 'Death Cult' monitor is terribly appropriate.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 4:50 pm Oh, that reminds me I have to read that book. I skimmed the first chapter a while back I think.

I should really make the time to read this book. My thinking is still stuck in that other one where people get caught in an agricultural trap.

Shows i have watched on netflix lately. Besides random food stuff.

Code Lyoko: Fun and exciting they definitely mix up the formula a lot but it basically devolves down to xana doing something bad and the gang resetting it (literally). I'm 9 episodes in so far. It's also less preachy than yugioh but showing how the gang resolves their previous mistakes is very nicely presented.

Hilda: About a girl from a magical forest moving to an also magical city not that she knows it. I'm guessing they wanted wholesome vibes and i do definitely enjoy it. I am 7 episodes in and i feel the formula changes a bit more than Lyoko since it focuses on co-operation with the monsters instead of fighting.

Yugioh: I'm around 40 episodes in and i'm not sure i would watch it again or continue. It's kinda a drag and preachy. GX has a bit more 2000's edge to it but is not much better.

Star Trek: I watched the first episode and the first part of the second and it feels like a drag. It's very stilted and boring.

Aggretsuko: I feel the first season is better since it's more mundane which goes with the theme which they are going with not that it ever loses its office politics edge.

Wednesday: Oh boy this sucks and i haven't even finished the first episode. It's blatantly annoying actually watching are antisocial protagonist go about her daily life.

Brand New Animal: Another first episode dropper through maybe i will pick it up again. I can't really describe why i dropped it just that it didn't feel that good.

Just finished reading Fire in the Valley: The Birth and Death of the Personal Computer (i.e. the latest edition of the book, leading up almost to present-day).

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:42 pm Just finished reading Fire in the Valley: The Birth and Death of the Personal Computer (i.e. the latest edition of the book, leading up almost to present-day).

"Death"? Isn't that a bit premature?

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 2:58 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:42 pm Just finished reading Fire in the Valley: The Birth and Death of the Personal Computer (i.e. the latest edition of the book, leading up almost to present-day).

"Death"? Isn't that a bit premature?

Yes, it is overstating things to a good degree, since PC's are still very much in use (e.g. I have never had a job where a smartphone was my primary computing device), and I heavily use a PC at home. Yet, at the same time, the smartphone has eclipsed the PC in general usage by the public, which is what that refers to.