Zompist Bboard Again

jupiter wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:22 pmnu ju ka ta sa pa mu mi si na ki ni sa mu sili ki ni ju mi si
SENT living many near CONT method speech same SUBJ good not PRED CONT speech begin not PRED living same SUBJ
In any case, I'll stop talking about this conlang since it seems to be so controversial.

It's fine actually. I'd just recommend that next time you introduce it to a conlanging group, you specify it's an artlang-verging-on-engelang inspired by Toki Pona, and that you consciously limit its expressiveness (just like Toki Pona).

The response you got here first is typical because most artlangers, here and elsewhere, follow the Naturalistic School, which says artlangs should be like real human languages or something close to that. There is an awareness auxlangs don't have to be naturalistic (and this goes without saying for engelangs, especially when they stress formal logic), but it is often forgotten this also applies to artlangs.



By the way, Kelen is often said to have verbs--they just happened to be named "the relationals". La is an existential, copula and possessive (there be + indefinite, be, have), pa is a possessive (have), ñi is a dynamic copula and causative auxiliary (become sth, make sb sth) and "go" and "be from X", and finally se is "give/receive" (+ke/mo), "take/steal" (+to/mo), "say" (+ien), "feel" (+two datives, one for the experiencer, one for the organ of perception) and a presentative (here/there be + definite). When not translatable with se, action verbs are usually translated with ñi + a sort of passive participle (which is rather a resultative in intransitive actions), especially when perfective, while statives and imperfectives tend to be translated with la or pa + the passive participle-like thing.

I have no idea how the author of Kelen reacts to this kind of comment though, but it has been made for a long time... I imagine she reacts negatively to it, and insists her no-verb analysis is correct. I personally don't see what the problem is in calling it a conlang with a tiny closed verbal category, where light verb constructions are used in abundance.

As another by the way, lots of languages have something similar to the Toki Pona context marker la. In linguistics we usually call them "topic markers", and gloss them with the abbreviation "TOP".

ʔɛ́k nén mæ̤ŋ cʰɑ̰i ɡɑ̄ nɨ̄ŋ mæ̀.
1S feel bad at_time PROX.S CLASS EGO
Now I feel bad.

Ser wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:28 pm It's fine actually. I'd just recommend that next time you introduce it to a conlanging group, you specify it's an artlang-verging-on-engelang inspired by Toki Pona, and that you consciously limit its expressiveness (just like Toki Pona).

...

As another by the way, lots of languages have something similar to the Toki Pona context marker la. In linguistics we usually call them "topic markers", and gloss them with the abbreviation "TOP".

That would probably have been a good idea. The other conlanging communities I'm a part of are familiar with toki pona and could immediately see what I was trying to do when I showed this language to them.

I'm familiar with topic markers, having studied Japanese for several months, but I don't consider la and は to be even close to equal in usage. There's too much difference between them. I know people usually cite topic markers as being similar to la, but to me that seems akin to when beginning Japanese learners learn both は and が to be subject markers: there's some overlap in translation, but they're quite different grammatically.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:00 am ʔɛ́k nén mæ̤ŋ cʰɑ̰i ɡɑ̄ nɨ̄ŋ mæ̀.
1S feel bad at_time PROX.S CLASS EGO
Now I feel bad.

dozama. ďuďal hemau nalxanönci.
do-zama / ďu-ďal he-mau nal-xanön-ci
IMP.2s-feel.sorry / 3s.i.p-be adv-one bad-speak-action
Don't worry about it. It was just a miscommunication.

Also, sorry for taking so long to respond. Classes started today so I've been pretty busy.

jupiter wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:26 pmI'm familiar with topic markers, having studied Japanese for several months, but I don't consider la and は to be even close to equal in usage. There's too much difference between them. I know people usually cite topic markers as being similar to la, but to me that seems akin to when beginning Japanese learners learn both は and が to be subject markers: there's some overlap in translation, but they're quite different grammatically.

Japanese は wa (and English "now X", Korean 는/은 -neun/-eun, Classical Chinese 者 or 也 or 夫, etc., and, for that matter, the ability German has of topicalizing by fronting and then using V2 order, or a similar ability French has, especially in its colloquial registers, where it retakes the fronted element with a resumptive pronoun) naturally don't present the same as the morphosyntax of Toki Pona la, but we don't expect them to.

I'm just saying it's unusual that in Toki Pona the term "context marker" (a practically non-existent term in linguistics) is used when "topic marker" would've been a good fit. (Any novel use of grammatical terminology is inevitably applied on a "best-fit" basis, because languages don't map neatly to each other.)

That said, unusual terminology is totally a thing that happens now and then: in English-language grammars of Standard Arabic, copular verbs are always referred to as "the sisters of kaana" (that is, the sisters of the verb "to be"), the possessed-possessor construction is often referred to as the "idafa" (outright borrowing an Arabic word!), and a certain similar construction involving adjectives is referred to as the "false idafa" (another calque). Arabic speakers developed their own grammatical tradition for Standard Arabic from the European Dark Ages (which for them was the early Golden Age of Islam) onwards, and Western languages calque some of the terminology of that tradition, even when there are good terms in Western linguistics that could be used instead.

Ser wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:59 pm I'm just saying it's unusual that in Toki Pona the term "context marker" (a practically non-existent term in linguistics) is used when "topic marker" would've been a good fit. (Any novel use of grammatical terminology is inevitably applies on a "best-fit" basis, because languages don't map neatly to each other.)

My point is that glossing la as a topic marker would lead to some serious misunderstandings, because of how vastly different they are. For example, multiple instances of la can be used in the same sentence, with the previous one nesting inside the next. Multiple topics is something I haven't seen in any language, nor would I expect to. (An example is tenpo ni la ma mi la kon li lete, "right now, where I am, it's cold.")

la can also be used for conditional statements, where it marks an entire sentence as context for the next (suno li loje la tenpo pona li lon, "when the sun is red, it is the right time"). It can move prepositional phrases to the front, often negating the need for a preposition at all (mi la ni li pona vs ni li pona tawa mi). It can be used to turn content words into conjunction-like phrases (ante la, "anyway," ni la, "so/then").

Trying to explain these functions with the term "topic marker" would make absolutely zero sense. The topic is rarely the phrase behind the la anyway. I know languages are messy and linguists try to fit the words they know to things that are similar, but there comes a time when it's best to use a new name.

In addition, the creator of toki pona, Sonja Lang, was already an accomplished linguist before she decided to make toki pona. I'm positive she knew what a topic marker was and specifically decided to call la something else so that mass confusion wouldn't arise among linguists, and because she knew better than anyone the vast differences between the two concepts.

jupiter wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:14 pm My point is that glossing la as a topic marker would lead to some serious misunderstandings, because of how vastly different they are. For example, multiple instances of la can be used in the same sentence, with the previous one nesting inside the next. Multiple topics is something I haven't seen in any language, nor would I expect to.

Qiang allows multiple topics: (LaPolla & Huang 2003)

tɕiquɑ-lɑ-ŋuəȵi tɕy-leː-ŋuəȵi ʁoi-kə-m he-ɕi-kui-stũ, ...
jigvualanguenyi jiuleeanguenyi voigem hveaxiguisdunn, ...
inside-LOC-TOP chicken-DEF:CL-TOP call-go-NOM DIR-send-INF:HS-PART
He (Uncle Snake) while inside sent the chicken to come and call, ...

mɑː-leː-wu ɑ-s-meqɑ-ŋuəȵi ȵiu-ŋuəȵi ɑ-s pɑn-tɕin-wu pɑn-tɕin tə-tʂhə-ȵi ...
maaleeawu asmeagvanguenyi nyiunguenyi as banjinwu banjin dechenyi ...
Mom-DEF:CL-AGT one-day-each-TOP wool-TOP one-day half-kilo-INST half-catty DIR-weigh-ADV
"Each day Mom (takes) half a catty of wool and weighs it (to make yarn balls)."

In the second example, apparently there are three topic-marked items - the third, maaleeawu, is marked by its position in the sentence.

(not sure about the orthographic transcription; LaPolla & Huang don't use it and don't go into much detail about it, but it's much easier to deal with than IPA transcription. I'm assuming nasalization is <-nn> because I think that's what Pumi does)

I wouldn't have thought nested topics was even a little bit weird.

I've sometimes come across Mandarin sentences with two topics, like topic NP + topic NP + subject NP + VP, but sadly I don't have an example at hand... Mandarin topics aren't even normally marked with a topic particle of any sort. And I'm not including postpositional phrases as topics here, just bare NPs.

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:36 pm That’s impressive! Are you fluent in Kala yet?

tsu'a...yomali na'etla yaue
Sorta...I use it every day.

ʔɛ́k nɑ̄ɨ mɔ̀ɔ jɑ̤n tʰɨ̰ŋ kɑ̤.
Ék naiu mòo yân thĩung kâ.
1S must create more language DED
I should conlang more.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:36 pm ʔɛ́k nɑ̄ɨ mɔ̀ɔ jɑ̤n tʰɨ̰ŋ kɑ̤.
Ék naiu mòo yân thĩung kâ.
1S must create more language DED
I should conlang more.

Aneid
NMZ.INAN-same
Same

Gen ad DED nageinolha?
Q PROP "DED" meaning-what
What does DED mean?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:36 pm I should conlang more.

nkata
Agreed.

maha nankua kalamyane
We should all conlang more.

Yaazhgzhoomnemek zhaashom seʔpeehow riʔaa ang.
/jaːʒgʒoːmnemek ʒaːʃom seʔpeːhow riʔaː a͏ŋ/

yaa-zh-gzhoom-∅-nem-ek

3s-1s-speak-PRES.IMPF-COMP-ERG

zhaa-shom-∅

1s-make-PRES.IMPF

seʔpee-how

slow-ADV

riʔaa

INT

ang

now

I have been conlanging (lit. I am making what I speak) very slowly right now.

Mi in mekop langwic atol wen dis de-dem, fo-mi las mekop langwic el ota 2016, an im a soso kohs pica. Oba mi longga tahn Obit Ya ina Sajiwan, cata 2 a niyali don.
I'm not conlanging at all currently, my last conlang was from 2016, and it's just a rough outline. But I'm still translating The Hobbit in Sajiwan, chapter 2 is almost finished.


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:39 am ... chapter 2 is almost finished.

ya temeha
Impressive!

masako wrote: ↑Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:35 pmya temeha
Impressive!

Bles yu! It pas nof nof taym pas won, kos bisi bisi taym wen dem olide an an, oba mi a fesful mi ebl ayop mata wen atan fyuca (an, fo ray, mata redi sta muf rayon fas pas pwaya).
Thank you! It took way more time than desired, due to hectic times during the holidays etc., but I'm hopeful I'll be able to step things up in the near future (and, in fact, things have alread started to move forward faster than before).


JAL

From this: https://youtu.be/hG9JkagAeRo

https://i.imgur.com/0UjgeVM.png << Click for Hanmoya sample of:

tlaka mua muheka amye simaye
man with sad.AUG alone sit-PST
And a Man sat alone, drenched deep in sadness.

hayakua nya kala ka’e eha ya’elaye ma kye
animal-all for talk toward P.3SG near-move-PST and IND.SP
And all the animals drew near to him and said,

na’ameta muhekauek | ya tena’am nya ueham tayo kanyo ma tetla yohatli
1PL.EXCL-P.2SG be.sad-AUG-VOL-NEG |VOC 2SG-P.1PL.EXCL BEN wish-PL 2SG.POSS ask and 2SG-P.4SG have-FUT
“We do not like to see you so sad. Ask us for whatever you wish and you shall have it.”

tlaka kye na anyani ueha
man IND.SP 1SG see-good want
The Man said, “I want to have good sight.”

mpiko kye ta ke anya nayo yohatli
vulture IND.SP 2SG TOP sight 1SG.POSS have-FUT
The vulture replied, “You shall have mine.”

tlaka kye na tinuaue
man IND.SP 1SG be.strong-VOL
The Man said, “I want to be strong.”

yakua kye ta kue ena tinuatli
jaguar IND.SP 2SG like P.1SG be.strong-FUT
The jaguar said, “You shall be strong like me.”

tlaka kye na hasam te kaya unyaue
man IND.SP 1SG secret-PL of earth know-VOL
Then the Man said, “I long to know the secrets of the earth.”

kuatla kye neta nyatsatli
serpent IND.SP 1SG-P.2SG reveal-FUT
The serpent replied, “I will show them to you.”

po ma’a hayakua emyaye
thus with animal-all happen-PST
And so it went with all the animals.

ama tlaka mpohokua ke kam yetapaye yohaye ha yalaye
time man gift-all TOP 3PL give-able-PST have-PST 3SG go-PST
And when the Man had all the gifts that they could give, he left.

oku ka’e uahayam kye ima tlaka unyampa | ha muyampa’utli | hayen na kyopo
owl toward DIST-animal-PL IND.SP now man know-much | 3SG do-much-able-FUT | sudden-ADV 1SG be.afraid
Then the owl said to the other animals, “Now the Man knows much, he’ll be able to do many things. Suddenly I am afraid.”

masa kye tlaka heyakua yoha | ima muhe hayo tlinatli
deer IND.SP man need-all have | now sad 3SG.POSS stop-FUT
The deer said, “The Man has all that he needs. Now his sadness will stop.”

oku kye nka | na nahe tlaka muanya anyaye | amak ha kue inyaha yenotlik | itla eha muhemya ma uehamya
owl IND.SP IMP.NEG | 1SG inside man hole see-PST | time.NEG 3SG like hunger-AUG fill-FUT-NEG | this P.3SG sad-CAUS and want-CAUS
But the owl replied, “No. I saw a hole in the Man, deep like a hunger he will never fill. It is what makes him sad and what makes him want.

ha ke maha’u tsaye kaya kye na mak ma nok nya yeta yohak
3SG TOP more-AUG until earth IND.SP 1SG more.NEG and nothing for give have-NEG
He will go on taking and taking, until one day the World will say, ‘I am no more and I have nothing left to give.'”

Emmu nuruneud deana
ID-MED story good
That is a good story

Mi memba dis tel. Fa fo-mi ahkayf, mi tahn dis wen 19 Janyuri 2016. Oba it insay nof rong rong, so minu nestahn im:

Dis man sit lon, im a sat sat fo so.
An olda bis kom wok, an tok se “Minu in won yu sat sat. Yu les as olda ting a dem yu won, an yu a go af dem.”
Man-ya tok se “Mi won gut ay.”
Volca-ya ansa se “Yu a go af mi ay.”
Man-ya tok se “Mi won swong.”
Jagwa-ya tok se “Yu a go swong sem mi.”
Nes man-ya tok se “Mi won se olda sikwat a wohl.”
Snek-ya ansa se “Mi a go co yu dem.”
An a so olda bis mek.
An wen taym man-ya af olda ting a dem dem bis ebl gi im, im lef wok.
Nes olbaht-ya tok pon dem oda bis se “Kos nu, man-ya se nof ting, im ebl mek nof ting. Sodm mi af feya.”
Diya-ya tok se “Man af olda ting a dem im won. Taym ya fi glum a bo ol.”
Oba olbaht ansa se “No. Mi luk kef insay man-ya, dip dip sem ongga im na go fil im no taym. Im ya mek im sat, an im ya mek im bahn. Man-ya a go tek tek an tek, op wan de olda wohl a go tok se ‘Minu a det, an minu nahf nomo a im minu me gi.’”

I recall this story. According to my archives, I translated it 19 Januari 2016. But it contains a lot of mistakes, so I retranslated it.


JAL

Yaadi ananiker wooremwaapihikii shannem wooremwaapihik yaaygishom gmoowenem yaazhkwaa ang! Yaazhshomin yaazhkwaa’aayennem wooremwaapihik yaagizhshomin yaazhkwaa.

/jaːdi ananiker woːremwaːpihikiː ʃanem woːremwaːpihik jaːjɡiʃom gmoːwenem jaːʒkwaː aŋ || jaːʒʃomin jaːʒkwaː.aːjenem woːremwaːpihik jaːgiʒʃomin jaːʒkwaː/

[[yaa-di

3s-exist

ananiker

other

wooremwaapih-ik-ii

clause-PLU-DAT

shan]=nem

with=COMP

wooremwaapih-ik-∅

clause-PLU-ABS

yaa-ygi-shom

3s-3p-make

gmoowe]=nem

in.this.manner=COMP

yaa-zh-kwaa

3s-1s-know

ang

now

[[yaa-zh-shom-in]

3s-1s-make-NMLZ

yaa-zh-kwaa-aay-en]=nem

3s-1s-able.to-REM.PFV-NEG=COMP

wooremwaapih-ik-∅

sentence-PLU-ABS

yaagi-zh-shom-in]

3p-1s-make-NMLZ

yaa-zh-kwaa

3s-1s-able.to

I finally figured out (lit. now know) how to make complement clauses! Now I can translate many more sentences which I couldn’t translate before.

(I don’t have any grammatical words, so I translated sentence and clause with wooremwaapih ‘sound-collection’, and translated complement clause with yaadi ananiker wooremwaapihikii shannem wooremwaapihik ‘clauses which exist with other clauses’. Hopefully that’s good enough.)