Zompist Bboard Again

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:42 am OK, serious question: does anyone here really have the ability to distinguish one PNG language (besides Rotokas and Tok Pisin) from another?

I’d say I can to some extent. At the family level, it’s not overly difficult: TNG is different to Yam is different to Sepik is different to Lakes Plains is different to Skou. There’s also some geographical areas (most prominently the Bird’s Head peninsula) which are very distinct. But beyond that, it can be difficult.

Karch wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:35 pm I'm afraid I'm the only one here who has the ability (Nortaneous might as well, but I don't know), but even I'm stumped here - hence the very broad questions - it could be from any area of the country! But I'll try - is it spoken in Gulf province?

No.

Creyeditor wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 3:33 pm Is it a Malayo-Polynesian language?

No. (And we have our first attempt! Three guesses remaining for you.)

Is it spoken in the northwestern part of the country?

Karch wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:05 pm Is it spoken in the northwestern part of the country?

No. (Of course, ‘northwestern part’ is a vague term, but I’m pretty confident this language is outside what you would call northwestern PNG.)

By now I'm afraid the only way to guess this language is to look up phonology papers for various languages that might look like the sample text, so I did that, and after failing to find any language that'd match the sample text, I started reading about languages of Madang province, and coincidentally found an old, handwritten paper about Koromu, and it turned out it looks like the sample text. Is it thus Koromu?

Character frequencies:
E: 62
A: 54
P: 40
U: 33
I: 32
O: 29
N: 27
R: 27
S: 16
M: 13
T: 10
H: 8
K: 3
W: 2

/p t k/
/s h/
/m n/
/w r/
/a e o i u/

The word nampa has a coda consonant and appears twice. There doesn't seem to be a glottal stop - if there were, it'd probably be common enough to appear at least once. If it's not Koromu, is it at least a Rai Coast language?

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:42 am OK, serious question: does anyone here really have the ability to distinguish one PNG language (besides Rotokas and Tok Pisin) from another?

Rotokas isn't spoken on the PNG mainland and will probably cease to be a PNG language in the technical sense soon enough given the >98% pro-secession result of the Bougainville referendum, but sure, it's not hard to tell Wutung from Yimas.

Karch wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:47 am By now I'm afraid the only way to guess this language is to look up phonology papers for various languages that might look like the sample text, so I did that, and after failing to find any language that'd match the sample text, I started reading about languages of Madang province, and coincidentally found an old, handwritten paper about Koromu, and it turned out it looks like the sample text. Is it thus Koromu?

Yes, indeed, it is Koromu. (I thought I finally managed to find a more difficult language to guess, but no, of course not…) I got it from this grammar.

Here's a few sentences in a mystery language.

ʔai³³ ni³³ sat²⁴ ʔan³³
na¹¹tsun³³ pioŋ³² poi²⁴
nau³³ ma⁴³ la:u³² ha³³
ʔdi⁵⁵ nan³³ sa³³ mo³³ si¹¹ mai³³ sa³³
zi¹¹ko¹¹ kʰiə⁴³ tʰa:i³³ ʔdai²⁴, kau³³ sau⁴³ pu³³ na:u³² lə³³

The rules are the same as last round.

Karch wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:17 am Here's a few sentences in a mystery language.

ʔai³³ ni³³ sat²⁴ ʔan³³
na¹¹tsun³³ pioŋ³² poi²⁴
nau³³ ma⁴³ la:u³² ha³³
ʔdi⁵⁵ nan³³ sa³³ mo³³ si¹¹ mai³³ sa³³
zi¹¹ko¹¹ kʰiə⁴³ tʰa:i³³ ʔdai²⁴, kau³³ sau⁴³ pu³³ na:u³² lə³³

The rules are the same as last round.

Do 5 and 1 represent lowest and highest tone respectively?

No, it's the other way round.

Does it have /ɣ/?

Is it Sinitic?

Karch wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:17 am Here's a few sentences in a mystery language.

ʔai³³ ni³³ sat²⁴ ʔan³³
na¹¹tsun³³ pioŋ³² poi²⁴
nau³³ ma⁴³ la:u³² ha³³
ʔdi⁵⁵ nan³³ sa³³ mo³³ si¹¹ mai³³ sa³³
zi¹¹ko¹¹ kʰiə⁴³ tʰa:i³³ ʔdai²⁴, kau³³ sau⁴³ pu³³ na:u³² lə³³

The rules are the same as last round.

Is using the WALS to narrow down the set of possible languages in accord with the rules?

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:59 pm Does it have /ɣ/?

No idea, the paper I took the examples from doesn't say anything about the phonology.

Is it Sinitic?

It's not.

Is using the WALS to narrow down the set of possible languages in accord with the rules?

Technically yes, but I would discourage it, as it's even more "boring" than using various language families for the same purpose.

Karch wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:02 pm

Is using the WALS to narrow down the set of possible languages in accord with the rules?

Technically yes, but I would discourage it, as it's even more "boring" than using various language families for the same purpose.

Thanks!

So the language looks like it’s spoken somewhere in China but it’s not Sinitic. Other families of China that might have potential candidates are Hmong-Mien, various TB subfamilies, Palaung and Kra-Dai. There’s also Tsat (Austronesian) but the tones don’t fit the sample text

After combing over Tibeto-Burman (couldn’t find a language whose tones/vowel qualities fit the text), Kra-Dai looks like the best guess out of those because of features like monosyllabicity, simple syllable structure, vowel length and and absence of things like syllabic fricatives and tons of palatals.

To me it could be either Maonan or Sui, but I’ll guess Sui because Wikipedia explicitly mentions preglottalized stops in the article.

I'm fairly sure it isn't Hmong Der (which, as I understand, doesn't distinguish final nasals, and tends to have much odder initials), but that's the only member of the family to which I've been exposed.

It's not Sui nor Hmong Der.

Aero wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:16 pm To me it could be either Maonan or Sui, but I’ll guess Sui because Wikipedia explicitly mentions preglottalized stops in the article.

In Tai-Kadai languages, non-contrastive preglottalisation in voiced stops seems to be a description of the describer rather than the language.

It certainly looks like a Sui dialect - preglottalisation is lost from nasals in some dialects. Presumably Karch will have checked the military/political situation if some might claim it as Sui.

Karch wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:40 pm It's not Sui nor Hmong Der.

Next guess: Maonan?

It's not Maonan either.
By the way, it'd probably be faster if you tried to guess this language using descriptive questions, rather than rattling off names of random languages from the region.

Is it a Tai ( = Zhuang-Tai) language?