Zompist Bboard Again

Space60 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:07 pm "mathematics, mathematical" Do you pronounce the "e" as a distinct syllable?

Variable - probably tempo-dependent.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:00 amÜbermensch - lol

Given the nazi connotations, and the fact that 6 million Jews were killed for not being "Übermensch", I'd seriously not lol about it.


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:42 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:00 amÜbermensch - lol

Given the nazi connotations, and the fact that 6 million Jews were killed for not being "Übermensch", I'd seriously not lol about it.

Uh, I was the one that said the joke (why did you reply to Travis?), and it's a joke about Nietzsche, who coined the word. He used it as the name for his ideal moral man, kind of like Confucius and his little term of the morally ideal junzi*, for Nietzsche übermensch meaning a man who would supposedly "decide on his own values" now that the Christian God was on the way out. And untermenschen were basically gnomes or semi-magical humans in stories at the time. And then, there I'm turning Nietzsche's übermensch into a dog.

Apparently the Nazis grabbed a new pejorized meaning for the word from some American KKK guy, who was also published in Germany, and who had twisted übermensch and untermensch into words of hatred for various minorities a couple decades after Nietzsche died, during the roaring twenties.


* To go on a tangent: 君子 jun1zi3 "lord-child", ~"respectable lord" due to positive connotations of "child", or ideal gentleman. Note that at the time, "child" was also used as a polite but informal 2nd person pronoun in Ancient Chinese, and in the next couple centuries it'd even become a suffix for respected philosophers, as in 孔子 Kong3-zi3 'Master Confucius'. Relatedly, Schuessler's etymological dictionary notes that 子 zi3 'child' is related to a Sino-Tibetan verb 'to come out', with a degree of agency. A 子 zi3 'child' was not necessarily seen as a passive being... See also: Salvadoran Spanish niña "(little) girl", a title of respect for middle-aged and old women, probably originally a wordplay around ña, a reduced form of the respectful title doña, but niña is now purely a respectful title.

Jesus in the gospels talks about the aspiration of becoming children of God, and that everyone should become little children to enter Heaven. Apparently from the idea that little children are supposedly humble and subordinate to others though.

EDITS 1-4: typos and more typos.

jal wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:42 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:00 amÜbermensch - lol

Given the nazi connotations, and the fact that 6 million Jews were killed for not being "Übermensch", I'd seriously not lol about it.

At least here, "Übermensch" does not really have the Nazi connotations that "Untermensch" has. I personally think more of Nietzsche when it comes to "Übermensch" than the Nazis myself, whereas "Untermensch" does connotate National Socialism to me.

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:12 pm

Zju wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:24 pmmèþru ['meθɹu]

I pronounce akam chinjir, dhok, mèþru the same way! How are those supposed to be pronounced?

It's [ˈmɛθ̪͆.ɹ̠ʷu]

mèþru wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:13 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:12 pm

Zju wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:24 pmmèþru ['meθɹu]

I pronounce akam chinjir, dhok, mèþru the same way! How are those supposed to be pronounced?

It's [ˈmɛθ̪͆.ɹ̠ʷu]

How do you pronounce [θ̪͆]? I’ve seen unreleased stops, yes, but never unreleased fricatives…

EDIT: Sorry, that wasn’t the ‘no audible release’ diacritic at all! My font doesn’t display that particular combination of letters and diacritics too well… For those who were confused like I was, that letter is actually a theta with the bridge symbol ◌̪ placed both above and below it. Honestly, I’m not entirely sure how to interpret this — [θ] is already dental, and both the below-bridge and the above-bridge also mean ‘dental’.

anteallach wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:20 am acknowledge

[ək̚ˈŋ͡nɔɫəd͡ʒ] (although the first vowel can be anywhere between [ə] or [æ])

anteallach wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:20 am acknowledge

[ɘʔkˈnaːɤ̯ɘːtʃ]

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:37 pm

mèþru wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:13 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:12 pmI pronounce akam chinjir, dhok, mèþru the same way! How are those supposed to be pronounced?

It's [ˈmɛθ̪͆.ɹ̠ʷu]

How do you pronounce [θ̪͆]? I’ve seen unreleased stops, yes, but never unreleased fricatives…

EDIT: Sorry, that wasn’t the ‘no audible release’ diacritic at all! My font doesn’t display that particular combination of letters and diacritics too well… For those who were confused like I was, that letter is actually a theta with the bridge symbol ◌̪ placed both above and below it. Honestly, I’m not entirely sure how to interpret this — [θ] is already dental, and both the below-bridge and the above-bridge also mean ‘dental’.

There are languages with a non-sibilant alveolar fricative, but even still, explicitly marking dentalness on [θ] in most cases seems excessive.

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:38 am[ək̚ˈŋ͡nɔɫəd͡ʒ] (although the first vowel can be anywhere between [ə] or [æ])

I suppose it's possible that what I really have there is an unrelased [k] although it sounds exactly like /g/ to me. I don't think my /n/ is at all velarised though.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:05 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:38 am[ək̚ˈŋ͡nɔɫəd͡ʒ] (although the first vowel can be anywhere between [ə] or [æ])

I suppose it's possible that what I really have there is an unrelased [k] although it sounds exactly like /g/ to me. I don't think my /n/ is at all velarised though.

I’m pretty sure that I do have an unreleased [k] there — I do have a difference between voiced and voiceless unreleased stops (although I’d have to use a spectrogram to figure out exactly what that difference is). And my /n/ is definitely coarticulated, or at least velarised.

EDIT: So I did actually go and look at a spectrogramh, and it turns out that the main difference is that I lengthen vowels before a voiced stop. But another difference is that for an unreleased voiced stop, the voicing appears to continue slightly after the vowel itself (although I’m not too good at reading spectrograms, and I could easily be misinterpreting it).

anteallach wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:20 am acknowledge

[ɨgˈnɑːl̴ɨdʒ̊]

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:05 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:38 am[ək̚ˈŋ͡nɔɫəd͡ʒ] (although the first vowel can be anywhere between [ə] or [æ])

I suppose it's possible that what I really have there is an unrelased [k] although it sounds exactly like /g/ to me. I don't think my /n/ is at all velarised though.

I asked because I also perceive that I have /g/ there, possibly sometimes even realised as [ɣ]. Like you, as far as I can tell it's followed by a normal [n].

Are there any other cases of unexpected voicing of a plosive before a nasal?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:54 am There are languages with a non-sibilant alveolar fricative, but even still, explicitly marking dentalness on [θ] in most cases seems excessive.

I'm marking that it is not just dental but more specifically interdental.

mèþru wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:44 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:54 am There are languages with a non-sibilant alveolar fricative, but even still, explicitly marking dentalness on [θ] in most cases seems excessive.

I'm marking that it is not just dental but more specifically interdental.

The thing is that it is normal for [θ] to be interdental in English, so explicitly marking interdentalness is unnecessy, even though some English-speakers such as myself have dental realizations of /θ/ as well (e.g. as a dental stop).

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:53 am

mèþru wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:44 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:54 am There are languages with a non-sibilant alveolar fricative, but even still, explicitly marking dentalness on [θ] in most cases seems excessive.

I'm marking that it is not just dental but more specifically interdental.

The thing is that it is normal for [θ] to be interdental in English, so explicitly marking interdentalness is unnecessy, even though some English-speakers such as myself have dental realizations of /θ/ as well (e.g. as a dental stop).

According to Ladefoged and Maddieson a sample of Californian students showed 90% using an interdental in think and a sample of British students showed 90% using an apical dental. (No mention of a labiodental...) I think mine is usually apical dental, but I've caught myself using interdentals too.

They also say they don't know of any language which contrasts them.

How do.you pronounce "Antarctica" and "Arctic"? Do you pronounce the first "c"?

Space60 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:43 pmHow do.you pronounce "Antarctica" and "Arctic"? Do you pronounce the first "c"?

I don't even pronounce the first t!

Space60 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:43 pm How do.you pronounce "Antarctica" and "Arctic"? Do you pronounce the first "c"?

/ˌænˈtʰɐːkʰtʰɪkʰə/
/ˈɐːkʰtʰɪk/
It's probably because I have a non-rhotic accent so there isn't a three-consonant cluster. I'm not sure about the syllable division though