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Re: British Politics Guide

Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 2:54 am
by Richard W
Moose-tache wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 1:13 am The backstop is part of the negotiation, so yes, article 50 without any agreement ends the backstop.
The problem is that under the transition agreement, the backstop will come into force unless the parties agree otherwise. So, if we leave with the transition agreement, we cannot then change to being as though we had left without the agreement. The UK will be less free than as a member, when we could exit without the backstop. That is why parliament is deadlocked.

The reported suggested Tory-Labour deal, whereby we try to stay in a customs union longer as a transitional step and then reconsider after a general election, might break the deadlock. It will also keep the Brexiteers active for a few more years.

Re: British Politics Guide

Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 11:25 am
by MacAnDàil
Moose-tache wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 1:17 am
MacAnDàil wrote: Mon May 06, 2019 10:24 am It would profit a politician in showing themselves as honest and realistic and able to put themselves into question.
Yes, I've often wondered why retail stores don't list their markup on the sticker, or why restaurants don't put a plaque on the door explaining every time they've had a health code violation. Aren't there any brave people left? If Teresa May had more honesty and integrity than anyone else on Earth, she would still say "this latest defeat has been a great victory," because that's her bloody job. No, it wouldn't ingratiate her with the voters to say "I cocked up." That's not how politics has ever worked, so there's no incentive for her to do that, no matter how cathartic it might be for you.
Obviously putting up a plaque would be going too far. One can apologise without doing it several times, like Justin Trudeau did when he accidentally jostled another parliamentarian. There's obviously a possible excess as well as possible insufficience.

Politicians do get laughed at for not owning up to their faults, May most prominently among them.

Re: British Politics Guide

Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 3:53 pm
by Salmoneus
Nerulent wrote: Mon May 06, 2019 5:02 pm
MacAnDàil wrote: Mon May 06, 2019 10:24 am I wholeheartedly support Extinction Rebellion in their cause for a more radical approach against climate change, a major threat to life on Earth as we know it. Sal's post does not change this support, but enlightens me about a certain negative aspect of it, which has since been retracted.
Sal's post seems to take the stances that protesting anything at all is not only stupid but laughable (since he doesn't mention why this protest in particular is stupid, and I'm assuming he's not a climate change denier), and/or protests are bad unless they cause no disruption and incur no arrests, and/or any members being inconsistent in their views and actions (e.g. using air travel) discredits the whole movement somehow. I take issue with all of these.
It's so good to know that even when I'm away from the board, people will leap up to invent objectionable things for me to have believed... although I think it's peculiar to assume that if someone mocks one X, they must think all X are stupid, unless they specifically say otherwise. The more charitable thing is to assume that people are talking about what they're talking about, rather than looking to get offended because they failed to list everything they weren't talking about.

I actually have a lot of time for political protests of many sorts. But that doesn't mean that I have a lot of time for all protests simply because they're protests - just as I think the strike is an important political weapon when used wisely, yet at the same time think that many recent strikes in the UK have been foolish.

You may note, for instance, that I did not in that post mock the simultaneous #OperationShutdown, the protests demanding action on knife crime. It's far from my favourite protest - and not just because it has a hash in its name - but it's a very different beast from ER.

If you seriously want to use protest for political purposes - rather than just as a grand day out - there are four essentials:
- do something to get attention for yourself
- get the public on your side, with a sympathetic and coherent message
- harness your moment in the sun by focusing on clear, concrete and achievable aims
- don't do more damage than good

Both protests did the first - they shut down parts of London, forcing people to pay attention to them.

However, on the second part, the two diverge considerably. I guess I'd break this into three parts: who is protesting; how does their protest relate to their message; and how do the protestors relate to the public.

As for who: in one case, you have a movement of bereaved family members. It's really hard to argue against, or dismiss, crying mothers of dead children. In the other case, you have a bevy of drunken Bullingdon Club twazzocks and C-list celebrities looking for exposure. [I wouldn't actually put Thompson in that category, since she's shown a life-long commitment to political causes, even if not always conducted wisely]. This is not, to put it mildly, the most appealing face of the climate change movement.

In terms of tactics, OS's protest involved a candlelight vigil for a murdered police officer, followed by a march onto a bridge that was the site of a terrorist attack. This was clearly a very calculated approach, designed to maximise sympathy and make it as hard as possible to dismiss their message. Each part of it focused the public mind on the group's message: a vigil for the dead showed that people are dying; specifically respecting a dead police officer reminded us that knife crime effects everybody; the choice of Westminster Bridge calls attention to the disparity between the political response to terrorist attacks and the political response to (much deadlier) casual knife violence; shutting down part of central London reminds us again of terrorist attacks, and makes us think of the much greater disruptions caused to people's lives by knife crime.

[a similar London protest we could also point to was the cyclists' knife-crime protest back in December. It's a biannual event, and it makes its point by most of its participants being teenagers - not just because it reminds us who the victims are, but because it itself is a positive contribution giving at-risk teenagers a support network and a sense of purpose that helps, in some small way, to advance the cause the event promotes.]

By contrast, ER activists clearly had a great deal of fun (frankly, too much laughing and posturing in a protest undermines the alleged sombreness of the event), but very little, if any, sense of tactical purpose or organisation. How does, for example, specifically targeting trains and buses focus attention on the cause? It doesn't - it makes them look like hypocrites at best, if not idiots. Worse - it focuses attention on the class and wealth issues. "It's OK for us to take our private jets, but you mustn't use the train" is not an persuasive position statement. Boasting about wanting to be arrested and what fun you'll have in prison doesn't make you look dedicated to a serious cause, it makes you look like a protest-tourist (which, of course, many of them were in the literal sense) - OS shut down their bridge just as effectively through planning and paperwork as ER did theirs through hooliganism and abuse of the police, but OS looked a lot more sympathetic in the process. Getting Thunberg to speak was a coup; but coverage of her speech was considerably undermined by scenes of police grappling with yobs and idiots gluing themselves to Jeremy Corbyn's fence. I mean, what was that even about!? They looked like idiots for targeting the Opposition rather than the Government, and then idiots again when they claimed that they were targeting him because they supported him... not to mention every time one of them opened their mouths on TVs to show how delusionally privileged they were.

In terms of relationship with the public, the contrast was stark. OS' messaging was that we're all in this together, and that protesters were speaking for the public, whom they respected. They didn't talk about wanting to bring London to its knees; they protested and then left. They'll be back at some point, I'm sure, as they have been before, but for now they treated the public with respect and solidarity. ER, on the other hand, has revelled in opposition to the public, right from its name onward - its rhetoric of "rebellion" and "war", its contemptuous words for the unenlightened public is seemingly sees as its enemy, its gleeful targeting of the necessities of everyday working-class and middle-class lives. Make us avoid a bridge for a day? Fine, you've got our attention. Stop us using buses and trains for a week? That's not calling our attention to something, that's holding us to ransom as pawns. Which, indeed, they freely admitted, with their talk of needing us to "meet their demands" before they'd let their hostages go. [The attacks on public transport also emphasised, as I say, the social divisions, making the gulf between protestors and public bigger - they gave the impression of not even understanding how much pain they were causing, because people like that have so little understanding of ordinary lives]. There was no feeling of respect or solidarity, of being on the same side.

And it told. Before the protests, support for their cause was sky-high, and support for the protests themselves when they began was solid - an academic poll found that only 26% of people opposed the protests. But Yougov, at the end of the protests, found most people no longer supported them, and that only 13% 'strongly' supported them, compared to 30% who 'strongly' opposed them. [overall, a 46-26 support-oppose split had been turned into a 36-52 split, which is remarkably given how popular their issue is (that earlier poll found 83% agreeing that climate change was one of the greatest threats facing humanity).] Strikingly, they even lost plurality support in London, an area that should be their greatest stronghold (it's young, ethnically diverse, Remainer and concerned about climate change, all predictors of support for ER).

When your protest ends with people more hostile to you than when you started, you're doing something wrong.

And it didn't help that they had no real purpose. The OS protests had clear, concrete and achievable goals: a COBRA meeting; an investigation into school exclusion; more rehabilitation for low-level offenders; tougher prison sentences for violent crime. Whether those are good goals isn't really the question: the point is, they've put pressure on the government, and given the government a way to reduce that pressure (agreeing to some or all of those points). Next time they protest, the public can say "hey, the government could have avoided this just by doing XYZ like they asked!". The ER protests, on the other hand, had no goals. Oh, they said they did, but their goals were insane, which is the same as having none: zero emissions by 2025. This is physically possible, but not a single person who knows anything about the topic thinks it's achievable by any means. Just for a start, you'd have to end all flights, remove 40 million cars from the road (even replacing them with hybrids wouldn't be enough; indeed, I don't think even replacing them with fully electric cars would be enough, given the sources of electricity), and remove 30 million boilers and central heating systems. In a country of under 70 million people, for context. All in under 6 years. The government literally cannot do that. And because everybody watching KNOWS that it's literally impossible to meet the protestor's demands, and because the protestors have been so binary about the issue (anyone who says no to their demands is a scumbag murderer) that they won't accept anything less than the impossible, that actually takes all the pressure OFF the government. Next time ER protests, the public will think "oh, they're protesting again - I guess there was nothing the government could do to avoid that!". And if you make it so that the government don't get blamed for failing to meet your demands, you make it so that the government don't even try to meet your demands, because getting blamed is almost the only thing they care about...


Leaving us with the balance of cost and benefit. The ER protests have perhaps marginally raised awareness - but since it's such a high-saliency topic, even that's not clear. The public is already very worried about climate change, and the government is already one of the most active governments in trying to combat it, and the public already think the government isn't doing enough. So it's not clear that the protests actually helped in that regard. Instead, by making themselves so unpopular they undermined themselves and other climate change protestors in future, and if anything made the public more hostile to their agenda rather than less. They're in serious danger of their future 'rebellions' becoming outright anti-progressive: on the current trajectory, politicians are going to start avoiding making progress that looks like they might be caving to ER. That's bad. Meanwhile, by draining all the publicity oxygen from the room, they've made it harder for other issues to get attention - the Operation Shutdown protests against knife crime, for example, would have received far more attention, and hence had a greater chance of being effective, if they hadn't been so overshadowed by a much larger and less popular protest.


I don't actually know whether that means the protests shouldn't have happened, or shouldn't have happened the way they did. You'll notice I've not actually, in this post or the other one, opposed the protests. But I do think they weren't very good protests, at best. And a lot of that is because they were "planned" by twazzocks. And when a bunch of twazzocks shoot an important cause in one foot unnecessarily (leaving aside the question of whether they should have been holding a gun in the first place!), then yeah, I don't think it's inappropriate to mock them a little.


Frankly, I'm increasingly alarmed by how little tolerance of mockery there sometimes is in "progressive" politics today (and, N.B., ER has been criticised by a wide range of serious progressives, including those within the climate movement itself). Sometimes, our side messes up. We shouldn't be afraid to acknowledge that; laughing at left-wing people being idiots does not make one a traitor to the cause - quite the contrary.








---------------


Another protest, while we're at it, that got some of its thunder stolen by the "Rebels" - the latest bloody wound in the long story of a genuine rebellion. In Derry, where young journalist Lyra McKee was murdered by pseudo-IRA wannabes, supporters daubed the walls of New IRA-affiliated "party", Saoradh with red handprints, to indicate that Saoradh has her blood on its hands. Later, the leader of the DUP was applauded by a Catholic crowd. A planned Easter Rising march by Saoradh had to be abandoned; one that went ahead was denounced by Sinn Fein, and termed by the Taoiseach "an insult to the Irish people". The landlord at Saoradh's Derry office has now evicted them.

This is a protest I can stand behind.

Re: British Politics Guide

Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 3:57 pm
by Salmoneus
Oh, and the Prime Minister may be removed from power in the near future.

Re: British Politics Guide

Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 3:41 am
by alice
Salmoneus wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 3:57 pm Oh, and the Prime Minister may be removed from power in the near future.
And it's currently May. I see what you did there.

Seriously, that was a very thoughtful takedown of the climate protests. Greta Thunberg knew better, too; she's pointed out that it's corporations and governments which are the biggest problem, not individuals. Pissing off the populace for days at a time is not going to help.

Re: British Politics Guide

Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 3:54 pm
by MacAnDàil
Ah I see. It's mostly a question of methods. This can contrast with yellow vests which took 5 months to lose some of its support.

On the other hand, a climate emergency does seem to have gotten a response from parliament, both at Scottish and UK level but at least the first seems to be more to do with the school strikes than Extinction Rebellion.

Re: British Politics Guide

Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 4:11 pm
by MacAnDàil
And the post-local-election polls are out! The Tories are only one point ahead of the Brexit party for the latest general election poll (22 v 21, with Labour at 28), while the European polls put the Tories not just behind the Brexit party and Labour, but even the Lib Dems.

Obviously, these are just three polls (one for the general election and two for the euros) and we need to look at the general trends but it sure looks like the Tories are in for a drubbing! Shows what happens you try to keep a split party together a supposed compromise that doesn't satisfy anyone.

They've been the nasty party for years, but at least they were also the party of business and things like that.

Re: British Politics Guide

Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 5:19 pm
by chris_notts
MacAnDàil wrote: Sat May 11, 2019 4:11 pm And the post-local-election polls are out! The Tories are only one point ahead of the Brexit party for the latest general election poll (22 v 21, with Labour at 28), while the European polls put the Tories not just behind the Brexit party and Labour, but even the Lib Dems.

Obviously, these are just three polls (one for the general election and two for the euros) and we need to look at the general trends but it sure looks like the Tories are in for a drubbing! Shows what happens you try to keep a split party together a supposed compromise that doesn't satisfy anyone.

They've been the nasty party for years, but at least they were also the party of business and things like that.
When you delete the "competent" from "competent evil", the result is less appealing somehow.

Re: British Politics Guide

Posted: Sun May 12, 2019 9:05 am
by MacAnDàil
Yep, that's more or less it!

And, to top things off, we've got a ComRes/Torygraph poll on the next general election showing the Tories are looking to be one point behind Farage's lot at the moment, with the Tories as low as 19%.

Re: British Politics Guide

Posted: Sun May 12, 2019 1:57 pm
by chris_notts
MacAnDàil wrote: Sun May 12, 2019 9:05 am Yep, that's more or less it!

And, to top things off, we've got a ComRes/Torygraph poll on the next general election showing the Tories are looking to be one point behind Farage's lot at the moment, with the Tories as low as 19%.
Finally a vote split on the right instead of the left?

Re: British Politics Guide

Posted: Mon May 13, 2019 8:28 am
by MacAnDàil
Yup! And Yougov have the Tories behind not just the Brexit party, Labour and LibDems but also the Greens for the Euro elections. The dodos are coming home to roost!

Re: British Politics Guide

Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 4:22 am
by zompist
Some nice remarks from an article about Theresa May's latest gambit, which is to not hold a fourth yes/no vote on Her Deal, but to directly introduce the legislation required to implement it:
So why is she doing it? For the same reason she does anything. Her prime ministerial career is littered with moments in which she creates severe future problems in order to overcome more trivial immediate ones. Her tactics are very predictable: survive the present, deal with the consequences later.

...May's whole strategic approach to politics assumes that people have no functioning memory. But they do, and it has ruined her.

Re: British Politics Guide

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:06 pm
by Frislander
Well now we have a promise that she will go after the fourth vote if it happens. Looks like we're doomed to Bozza for PM.

Re: British Politics Guide

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:46 pm
by alice
Frislander wrote: Thu May 16, 2019 12:06 pm Well now we have a promise that she will go after the fourth vote if it happens. Looks like we're doomed to Bozza for PM.
I heard that Chris Grayling is in charge of the timetable, and she's stepping down on the 31st of June.

Re: British Politics Guide

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 2:18 pm
by Salmoneus
Yes, we're pretty definitively getting to the end (of her, if not of anything of substance). There have been a couple of little signs...

- the Prime Minister has lost the confidence of her party. Not the parliamentary party - I mean, she doesn't have their confidence either, but they lack the confidence to say so in public - but of the party grassroots, and in particular the local activists in the conservative associations. Various associations have openly declared this, and a formal VONC process has now been triggered.

- several candidates have - not covertly or implicitly, but openly and unabashedly - declared their candidacy to replace her ('when the time comes'). And I don't mean rebels - these are senior Tories, including a Cabinet Minister (Rory Stewart, who declared his intention to replace May the same day that he was promoted into the cabinet to replace someone May had sacked for disloyalty).

- responses to May's attempt to negotiate a Brexit deal with Labour have been, to put it mildly, vituperative. The national papers have accused her of "stitching up" the country by potentially avoiding No Deal. Tory MPs have had steam coming out of their ears: both a Brexit deal and any notion of so much as nodding at a 'Marxist' are anathema to them now.

- around the end of the month, May will overtake the tenure of Gordon Brown, which is apparently a major reason why she hasn't previously resigned. A month longer and she'll beat Neville Chamberlain, and two months after that she'll even catch Jim Callaghan. These scalps would enable her to enlist Wikipedia evidence when in future she's accused of being the worst failure in modern British politics.

- May has helpfully nudged negotiations along by declaring that whatever happens she expects Parliament to vote to approve her own proposal in the first week of June. She's open to doing any deal with Labour, so long as it involves Labour agreeing to all her demands.

- as has just been said, the Chairman of the 1922 has circulated a letter that says that after that vote, the PM has agreed to officially set a date for her own departure. Now, technically he doesn't say WHEN that departure date will be, and maybe May will declare that it will be in 2297. I wouldn't put it past her. But it seems that she will be one the way out much sooner than later.

- in the middle of June, the Emergency General Meeting of conservative association chairmen, as triggered by the VONC petition mentioned above, will meet. It'll be a week of people saying how much they hate the prime minister, followed by, it's assumed, a formal vote to demand her resignation. This is not legally binding, because as we've addressed before the 'grassroots party' is largely a PR fiction with no actual control over parliamentarians. But it would be an immense national humiliation, of a kind to which no other PM has ever been subjected. She'd probably like to avoid it.

If she waits for the big vote, and declares her departure on June 31st, she can go into that EGM having already conceded to its demands, and in return it's likely to shower her with praise, commend her on her honourable decision, and decline to officially vote against her. Much better for the ego. And of course, what is a 'departure'? I suspect she'll formally step down as Tory leader at that point, but will remain as PM until a successor is chosen. Give it a six week tory leader election process, and she'll helpfully pass the mark set by Chamberlain. Some will even call for her to stay on until the party conference in Autumn - letting MPs have the summer off and then use the conference as a televised audition process for the the leadership, as they did when Cameron became leader - which would let her overtake Callaghan.

Re: British Politics Guide

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 4:56 pm
by chris_notts
Why would you stay in office just to rack up time, without any actual power? Is TM really having a pissing contest with a bunch of mostly dead men at a time when the nation is disintegrating?

Re: British Politics Guide

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 5:47 pm
by doctor shark
Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't there soon be a State Opening of Parliament and a Speech from the Throne? It's been a while since the last one (2017, right after the snap election)...

Re: British Politics Guide

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 6:29 pm
by zompist
chris_notts wrote: Thu May 16, 2019 4:56 pm Why would you stay in office just to rack up time, without any actual power? Is TM really having a pissing contest with a bunch of mostly dead men at a time when the nation is disintegrating?
Eh, I don't think there's a big mystery: May stays on because she thinks she's the only one who could get Her Deal passed. Which is probably true. (That no one else could, I mean. Probably she can't either, but she can fail better than anyone else at it.)

She's not very good at conceiving of the idea that any other path is available, so she doesn't care that she's standing in the way.

Re: British Politics Guide

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 6:49 pm
by Salmoneus
vampireshark wrote: Thu May 16, 2019 5:47 pm Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't there soon be a State Opening of Parliament and a Speech from the Throne? It's been a while since the last one (2017, right after the snap election)...
Well...

There doesn't have to be a Queen's Speech until the opening of the next session. When must that be? There are no rules. This session could be eternal, if they want it to be.

Normally, it's a year long. May had this one doubled in length to two years because Brexit. But she can't end it! If she does, she'll have to open it again, which means a Queen's Speech, which means a vote on the QS. Since the QS is a vote on the government's proposed legislation, which includes her brexit deal - and everyone knows it even if she didn't mention it in the vote - she would lose that vote. That, conventionally, means losing a vote of confidence, which means she'd be out of power.

So, the next QS will probably take place in one of three ways:

- if she lost her vote on her deal, and wanted to try again, she'd have to start a new session (you can't have the same bill twice in one session). This was thought likely, and the reason she wasn't having a vote - but now she is, but since she's 'departing' after it either way she presumably won't need to prorogue parliament, and presumably her predecessor won't want to introduce the bill again.

- once she goes, her replacement might want a new session and a new QS to garner legitimacy and to give the public (and MPs) a sense of their intended policy direction

- if there's a new election, there will have to be a new QS


Alternatively, eventually MPs will just get too pissed off and will demand one. At the moment, there is literally nothing for them to do. We've run out of everything that was in the last QS to do, so there's no legislation for them to debate (other than Infinite Brexit). The government can still introduce things as the need arises, but it's rather constitutionlly iffy, and it means everything will be sprung on MPs in a disordered fashion without advance notice, and they're not going to enjoy that.

Re: British Politics Guide

Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 7:09 am
by mèþru
Who would be interim party leader between the vote and her resignation?