Zompist Bboard Again

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:08 am

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:02 am I don't think there's been any magical time, at least in the last 150 years, when everyone in the country accepted some institution as completely trustworthy. Being angry at the newspapers, or TV, or academics, or the health authorities, is an age-old American pastime.

And one reason is that it's enormously profitable to spread disinformation.

I know at heart opposition to vaccines is an issue of trust in the institutions. But I don't fully understand the logic.

I don't trust my government much myself. I'm suspicious of health authorities, newspapers and TV.
Even so, vaccines are a logical answer to a viral pandemic. We know antiviral drugs have always been a difficult proposition, and that miracle cures aren't likely to work. I followed the HCQ trials with some interest, and I think given the circumstances giving it a shot was reasonable, but it was soon pretty obvious that it was snake oil.

I'm not sure whose logic you're not following. But from earlier postings, I believe Nort has an idea that <insert right-wing fixations A, B, C> destroyed people's trust in mainstream institutions, therefore they turn to alternative sources.

The thing is, his list of fixations is absurdly recent. Everyone has had some institution fail them— that's how modernity works. And the period just before modernity, which rather notoriously lost confidence first in the Popes, and then in kings.

Religiously, some people were disgusted to find that the church was a reactionary support for the oppressors; others were disgusted by academics and even church leaders abandoning what they considered divine teaching and practice. In American politics, everyone has some key events where it turned out the government was lying or misbehaving. Anyone who thinks this is new should review the actual controversies of the 1930s, the '50s, the '60s. Or the 1850s for that matter.

It's true that things like vaccinations for polio and the flu were not very controversial a generation ago. But crazy conspiracy theories aren't new either— 1960s conservatives railed against fluoridation of drinking water, and you could probably fill a book with things that have been claimed to be the mark of the beast.

The Covid pandemic has some strong parallels to the 1919 influenza one— especially in the rush to "re-open" which led to huge surges in cases.

You can certainly find evidence that e.g. trust in the US government has declined. Explaining that is another story. If you look at Pew's very interesting chart, the first thing I'd point out is that the trust level correlates strongly with economic prosperity: the postwar boom, the Clinton-era boom. Political polarization is also far higher today— but the chart is highly distorting since polling on this question only began in 1958. The big political question isn't "why is US politics so polarized today" but "why was it unusually unpolarized in the postwar era". And there are some obvious reasons for that.

Probably linked to polarization: we had highly partisan newspapers for most of our history, then a period of centrist monopoly by the top 3 TV networks, and now a competing set of highly partisan news networks. There's no huge mystery why right-wingers believe things that outsiders consider weird or wrong: they're fed a constant stream of those things from radio, TV, and churches. And those things are big, big business which isn't going to change its model soon.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:36 amWe're at close to five million dead now, and almost two years of complete social disruption. That's ample justification for a mandatory vaccine. If there's any kind of alternative plan I'd love to hear about it.

This is an instance of the classical problem-solution scheme: the same people who caused the problem give us the solution.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:02 amOkay, let's check back in two years. I'm absolutely certain there'll be no social credit system to be seen.

Sure? Green passes look like a kind of embrionary social credit system.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:02 amAlso, nobody will have sprouted a third testicle because of the vaccines. (And we'll all have moved on to something else entirely.)

There're other adverse effects reported from COVID-19 vaccines.

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:40 am Probably linked to polarization: we had highly partisan newspapers for most of our history, then a period of centrist monopoly by the top 3 TV networks, and now a competing set of highly partisan news networks. There's no huge mystery why right-wingers believe things that outsiders consider weird or wrong: they're fed a constant stream of those things from radio, TV, and churches. And those things are big, big business which isn't going to change its model soon.

That's probably the heart of the matter. I wonder how much the author Talskubilos quoted is making from these books.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:41 am This is an instance of the classical problem-solution scheme: the same people who caused the problem give us the solution.

Are you aware that COVID-19 is an actual virus that people can actually catch? Also the dead aren't actors: they're really dead.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:02 amSure? Green passes look like a kind of social credit system.

Green passes track absolutely nothing besides vaccination status.
That being said, I think we could and should've dispensed with these by, again, just making vaccination mandatory.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:02 amThere're other adverse effects reported from COVID-19 vaccines.

Such as? About the only serious one is a slightly higher risk of blood clots reported for AstraZeneca -- to be compared with the much, much higher risks of blood clots caused by the disease itself.

(To some extent, maybe we're too spoiled and pampered. Back in the 50s vaccine really had nasty side effects -- and a not negligible chance of killing you -- but nobody was spreading conspiracy theories. Looks like one or two polio survivors among your classmates really did wonders.)

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:56 amAre you aware that COVID-19 is an actual virus that people can actually catch?

If we have to believe the official narrative, most people who catch the SARS-COV-2 would be healthy or only have mild syntoms. COVID-19 is the first pandemic of "asymptomatic" cases.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:56 amAlso the dead aren't actors: they're really dead.

There're far more deadly causes of death than COVID-19, including cancer, cardiovascular diseases, etc.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:56 amGreen passes track absolutely nothing besides vaccination status.

Anyway, they would be a test for future measures.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:56 amThat being said, I think we could and should've dispensed with these by, again, just making vaccination mandatory.

In UK, human guinea pigs for dug trials are paid. Mandatory vaccionation would make governments and the pharmaceutic industry responsible for adverse effects.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:56 amSuch as? About the only serious one is a slightly higher risk of blood clots reported for AstraZeneca (to be compared with the much, much higher risks of blood clots caused by the disease itself.)

As a matter of fact, vaccins can cause the same symptoms attributed to COVID-19. Apparently, the cause is the spike protein binding to ACE2 receptors.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:26 am

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:56 amAre you aware that COVID-19 is an actual virus that people can actually catch?

If we have to believe the official narrative, most people who catch the SARS-COV-2 would be healthy or only have mild syntoms. COVID-19 is the first pandemic of "asymptomatic" cases.

Not quite: COVID-19 is the first pandemic where we have the ability to detect asymptomatic cases, thanks to PCR (invented 1983).

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:56 amSuch as? About the only serious one is a slightly higher risk of blood clots reported for AstraZeneca (to be compared with the much, much higher risks of blood clots caused by the disease itself.)

As a matter of fact, vaccins can cause the same symptoms attributed to COVID-19. Apparently, the cause is the spike protein binding to ACE2 receptors.

Vaccines can cause these symptoms — in much milder form. It’s still better than any case of COVID-19. (Even an asymptomatic case, since that still means you could pass it onto someone else.)

Engaging conspiracy theory shit is not useful.

I was about to say something to that effect — that and that discussing with Nortaneous, a by all appearances non-serious person when discussing these topics (all I've had from him are attempts at narrative control tactics rather than actual ideas, and when I've seen actual ideas from him they appeared counterfactual, if I remember correctly), probably won't yield anything interesting or useful.

Since Tals. likes discussing their foe list, I'll mention they're the first person on there. Congratulations!

Congratulations on your first foe!

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:26 amThere're far more deadly causes of death than COVID-19, including cancer, cardiovascular diseases, etc.

LOL. "There are lots of causes of death in this country more significant than car crashes. That's why we don't take any measures to prevent car crashes."

You must have been the standout student in Logic 101.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:56 am

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:41 am This is an instance of the classical problem-solution scheme: the same people who caused the problem give us the solution.

Are you aware that COVID-19 is an actual virus that people can actually catch? Also the dead aren't actors: they're really dead.

Talskubilos seems to think that COVID-19 was deliberately created and released for the purposes of bringing about reactions to a pandemic, as he seems to think that 9/11 was deliberately carried out by the US gov't itself rather than by Islamist terrorists, and so on....

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:52 am

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:26 amThere're far more deadly causes of death than COVID-19, including cancer, cardiovascular diseases, etc.

LOL. "There are lots of causes of death in this country more significant than car crashes. That's why we don't take any measures to prevent car crashes."

You must have been the standout student in Logic 101.

Also, "cancer" is actually more than 100 separate diseases, and "heart disease" is a collection of more than 30 conditions. The fact anyone feels the need to compare COVID 19 (1 disease) to the deaths caused by dozens or hundreds of diseases taken together really does tell you something.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:46 amTalskubilos seems to think that COVID-19 was deliberately created and released for the purposes of bringing about reactions to a pandemic, as he seems to think that 9/11 was deliberately carried out by the US gov't itself rather than by Islamist terrorists, and so on....

That's right. It looks like Muslims have been used as patsies in false flag terrorist attacks, as well as crisis actors on mass-media. The Barcelona attack of 2017 in La Rambla was also of this kind.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:54 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:46 amTalskubilos seems to think that COVID-19 was deliberately created and released for the purposes of bringing about reactions to a pandemic, as he seems to think that 9/11 was deliberately carried out by the US gov't itself rather than by Islamist terrorists, and so on....

That's right. It looks like Muslims have been used as patsies in false flag terrorist attacks, as well as crisis actors on mass-media. The Barcelona attack of 2017 in La Rambla was also of this kind.

You really have gone full conspiracy nut, I see.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:23 pm

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:54 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:46 amTalskubilos seems to think that COVID-19 was deliberately created and released for the purposes of bringing about reactions to a pandemic, as he seems to think that 9/11 was deliberately carried out by the US gov't itself rather than by Islamist terrorists, and so on....

That's right. It looks like Muslims have been used as patsies in false flag terrorist attacks, as well as crisis actors on mass-media. The Barcelona attack of 2017 in La Rambla was also of this kind.

You really have gone full conspiracy nut, I see.

Nah, (s)he's just a Wandertroll.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:23 pmYou really have gone full conspiracy nut, I see.

And you've gone covidiot.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:53 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:23 pmYou really have gone full conspiracy nut, I see.

And you've gone covidiot.

That word doesn't mean what you seem to think it means: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/covidiot.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:00 pmThat word doesn't mean what you seem to think it means: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/covidiot.

That's right, but we "dissidents" have reversed its meaning.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:11 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:00 pmThat word doesn't mean what you seem to think it means: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/covidiot.

That's right, but we "dissidents" have reversed its meaning.

Calling yourself a "dissident" does not legitimize your position, but it will lead to more deaths, because there will be those who will foolishly listen to your kind as a result.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:18 pmCalling yourself a "dissident" does not legitimize your position, but it will lead to more deaths, because there will be those who will foolishly listen to your kind as a result.

You're brainwashed.