Zompist Bboard Again

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:25 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:18 pmCalling yourself a "dissident" does not legitimize your position, but it will lead to more deaths, because there will be those who will foolishly listen to your kind as a result.

You're brainwashed.

Says the person who seems to have bought into many an utterly ridiculous conspiracy theory...

Giving Talskubilos a day off, as a warning. The relevant parts of the rules:

Don't abuse people directly. Don't call them idiots or tell them to shut up.
Don't troll. If you're just trying to get a rise out of people, don't do that.

If you have a non-standard theory, you'd better be patient and unusually amiable. Don't attack people, don't ignore rebuttals, don't get mad because people don't follow you.

And just to be clear, the ban is for one day, but that does not mean "wait 24 hours and resume trolling." One non-standard theory is quite enough; it's best if you leave this thread alone.

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:40 pm And just to be clear, the ban is for one day, but that does not mean "wait 24 hours and resume trolling." One non-standard theory is quite enough; it's best if you leave this thread alone.

Sadly, though, I don't think Talskubilos was trolling. I think Talskubilos sincerely believes everything he was saying.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:57 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:40 pm And just to be clear, the ban is for one day, but that does not mean "wait 24 hours and resume trolling." One non-standard theory is quite enough; it's best if you leave this thread alone.

Sadly, though, I don't think Talskubilos was trolling. I think Talskubilos sincerely believes everything he was saying.

To me, making one-liners stating but not arguing for a conspiracy theory, and then responding to people with insults, is also trolling.

(Not that this is the place for indulging in long rants about 9/11 or whatever. But the way he did go about it is trollish.)

I would also call that "trolling".

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:04 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:57 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:40 pm And just to be clear, the ban is for one day, but that does not mean "wait 24 hours and resume trolling." One non-standard theory is quite enough; it's best if you leave this thread alone.

Sadly, though, I don't think Talskubilos was trolling. I think Talskubilos sincerely believes everything he was saying.

To me, making one-liners stating but not arguing for a conspiracy theory, and then responding to people with insults, is also trolling.

Well, to be fair, he was hardly the only one throwing insults. But the consistent one-liners were indeed very trollish. Maybe the ban will make him reconsider.

I don't think Talskubilos was trolling either - their style of argumentation to be incredibly terse, state incredibly controversial ideas like "COVID-19 is a false-flag operation" or "the Indo-European word for 'pig' comes from Austronesian" as fact, and do an incredibly poor job of backing up their ideas with evidence besides Wikipedia links and pictures of the front covers of books. It just looks a lot more like trolling when the subject is a matter of 4.7 million people dead and many with life-changing "long COVID" conditions like parosmia rather than something academic like the validity of the comparative method.

I think it's the very rude one-liner followed by some sort of emoji indicating an undue sense of superiority, or giving some idea of flippancy, that most qualified as "trolling", which is distinct from stating one's opinion of a person for a given reason (which is what we are doing now) or poorly defending his arguments (which he also appears to have done).

I do not think it is totally fair that Talskubilos gets singled out for a one day ban. This whole debate has not been entirely civil and that can't be blamed solely on Talskubilos. A ban seems especially unfair when this rule is invoked: "Don't abuse people directly. Don't call them idiots" , as other have been doing exactly this:

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:23 pm You really have gone full conspiracy nut, I see.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:16 am So Talskubilos is [...] a linguistic crackpot

Also, we probably need a thread dedicated to discussing (temp)bans.

Raholeun wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:49 am A ban seems especially unfair when this rule is invoked: "Don't abuse people directly. Don't call them idiots" , as other have been doing exactly this:

I agree, and those are far from the only examples. That being said, Talskubilos is being far worse, far more consistently. The temptation is strong when dealing with someone like that. (I’ve succumbed to it myself. So has everyone else here, I’m sure.) Maybe the best solution is to just lock this thread for a few days rather than banning anyone, so that everyone has a chance to calm down.

EDIT: Actually, on reflection, locking threads rather than banning people strikes me as an excellent moderation strategy in general. Often everyone seems to get upset with each other at once; in such cases singling out one person for banning seems somewhat unfair (even when they deserve it). Locking the thread instead would give everyone a much needed chance to calm down.

Ketsuban wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:53 pm I don't think Talskubilos was trolling either - their style of argumentation to be incredibly terse, state incredibly controversial ideas like "COVID-19 is a false-flag operation" or "the Indo-European word for 'pig' comes from Austronesian" as fact, and do an incredibly poor job of backing up their ideas with evidence besides Wikipedia links and pictures of the front covers of books. It just looks a lot more like trolling when the subject is a matter of 4.7 million people dead and many with life-changing "long COVID" conditions like parosmia rather than something academic like the validity of the comparative method.

I read this as "the Indo-European word for 'pig' is a false-flag operation' and now there's a theory I'd enjoy reading!

Raholeun wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:49 am I do not think it is totally fair that Talskubilos gets singled out for a one day ban. This whole debate has not been entirely civil and that can't be blamed solely on Talskubilos. A ban seems especially unfair when this rule is invoked: "Don't abuse people directly. Don't call them idiots" , as other have been doing exactly this:

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:23 pm You really have gone full conspiracy nut, I see.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:16 am So Talskubilos is [...] a linguistic crackpot

I disagree. If you consistently push linguistic ideas that have been debunked, you are a linguistic crackpot. There's much worse ways to describe it, and in the context of conspiracy theories, it indicates a pattern to the level of thinking going on. Speaking of, saying "full conspiracy nut" is being generous. The people that push that crap are full on idiots. If you haven't dealt with this with people you know, you may not realize just how toxic this topic is. Frankly, a 1-day ban is lenient. Trying to be nice & fair about it is futile. Cut the cancer out as fast as possible.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:47 am I read this as "the Indo-European word for 'pig' is a false-flag operation' and now there's a theory I'd enjoy reading!

The new Dan Brown novel for linguistics fans!

Vardelm wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:05 am

Raholeun wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:49 am I do not think it is totally fair that Talskubilos gets singled out for a one day ban. This whole debate has not been entirely civil and that can't be blamed solely on Talskubilos. A ban seems especially unfair when this rule is invoked: "Don't abuse people directly. Don't call them idiots" , as other have been doing exactly this:

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:23 pm You really have gone full conspiracy nut, I see.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:16 am So Talskubilos is [...] a linguistic crackpot

I disagree. If you consistently push linguistic ideas that have been debunked, you are a linguistic crackpot. There's much worse ways to describe it, and in the context of conspiracy theories, it indicates a pattern to the level of thinking going on. Speaking of, saying "full conspiracy nut" is being generous. The people that push that crap are full on idiots. If you haven't dealt with this with people you know, you may not realize just how toxic this topic is. Frankly, a 1-day ban is lenient. Trying to be nice & fair about it is futile. Cut the cancer out as fast as possible.

There is no board rule against believing someone is a crackpot, nor is it illegal on this forum to espouse eccentric theories (how can a linguistic theory be "debunked" anyway?).

What is illegal is to call people idiots. You are doing this exact thing, going as far as to compare someone to a cancer. How is that okay?

Raholeun wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:16 am What is illegal is to call people idiots. You are doing this exact thing, going as far as to compare someone to a cancer. How is that okay?

When it comes to conspiracy theories related to COVID, PizzaGate, QAnon, and the rest of it, the ideas are a cancer. Unfortunately, those ideas can't be separated from the people spreading them, so you deal with the people by not giving them a platform. Engaging in reasoned debate with them only legitimizes their lunacy.

The matter is that ideas like Talskubilos's w.r.t. COVID are actively harmful; the belief in them has resulted in far more deaths than if everyone just got vaccinated once vaccines became available. Sure, I did not react to them and the person purveying them (Talskubilos) in the most polite fashion, but treating such ideas as if they were equally worthy of debate to any others only legitimizes them, and thus increases their harm.

For me, the important question here is whether someone with non-standard ideas is ready to listen and to engage in serious discussion or not. Talskubilos hasn't shown much of that on the COVID issue. And I honestly don't feel much of a desire to engage him on this; 20 years ago I still would have leapt at the chance to correct someone who is wrong on the internet on political or social issues, but now I value my time too much.
On the linguistic issues, Talskubilos obviously has no idea (or the wrong idea) about how historical linguistics work, but he's also not Nyland-style crazy; some of the ideas he brought up here have also been argued by serious linguists, and following up on some of his posts lead me to interesting finds. He could lose some of his snark and of his "I'm the iconoclast who knows things better than established science" pose, but those are matters of taste, and I at least would be willing to tolerate them in order to keep up a stimulating debate.

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:34 am EDIT: Actually, on reflection, locking threads rather than banning people strikes me as an excellent moderation strategy in general. Often everyone seems to get upset with each other at once; in such cases singling out one person for banning seems somewhat unfair (even when they deserve it). Locking the thread instead would give everyone a much needed chance to calm down.

Sometimes we do lock threads. But I don't agree that it's a better strategy in this case. I received two complaints about him spreading misinformation (and anti-vax misinformation is killing people). One, that's going to upset people. Two, it's not something he was doing because he wasn't calm.

I do wish that people, in a trolling situation, wouldn't all decide that they can and must write a post to address it. But it's very hard to stop them, and it's also my feeling that when someone thrives on creating controversy, that person has more responsibility than the people they are upsetting.

hwhatting wrote:On the linguistic issues, Talskubilos obviously has no idea (or the wrong idea) about how historical linguistics work [...]

Talskubilos has been permabanned before, for making a nuisance of himself on the linguistics side. People don't seem very bothered by him on that front, so I haven't intervened. But he could stand to up his social skills.

Note that the thread has been going on for about 18 months and 40 pages without a problem up until now, so it's not the fault of the thread.

Also, someone got killed the day before yesterday in Idar-Oberstein in Germany after not letting someone buy beer because the later murderer didn't have a mask on. So that is an example of Covid-19 measure opposition going violent and not just spreading Covid-19 and misinformation.

I admit I have little patience for people who think it isn't real. My uncle died of complications owing to Covid earlier this year (he had multiple preexisting conditions, including what I understand to have been extensive neurological damage), and that probably sped along the decline of my grandmother (though she was also 91, her health before that was relatively good, so I expect the resultant stress played a roll). For all the crazy in that side of the family, Anti-Vaxxerism and Covid denial are... mostly not among them.

My mum got Covid last year and while it was mostly mild she still hasn't recovered all of her taste and smell senses and it has really diminished her quality of life. People who reject or downplay it are ridiculous.