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Re: Name That Language!
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:40 am
by Qwynegold
Hmm, I've been looking and looking on WP, but everything either belongs to one of those families it's not supposed to be, or does still have L1 speakers, or wasn't spoken anywhere near Thailand or Laos.
Re: Name That Language!
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:12 am
by Richard W
Qwynegold wrote: ↑Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:40 am
Hmm, I've been looking and looking on WP, but everything either belongs to one of those families it's not supposed to be, or does still have L1 speakers, or wasn't spoken anywhere near Thailand or Laos.
Wikipedia doesn't actually say where this language is or was spoken. The home of this dialect is neither Thailand nor Laos.
Re: Name That Language!
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:40 am
by Karch
Is it an Indo-European language?
Re: Name That Language!
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:44 am
by Richard W
Karch wrote: ↑Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:40 am
Is it an Indo-European language?
Yes!
Re: Name That Language!
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:46 am
by Karch
Is the language used as a liturgical language?
Re: Name That Language!
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:48 am
by Richard W
Karch wrote: ↑Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:46 am
Is the language used as a liturgical language?
Yes.
Re: Name That Language!
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:49 am
by bradrn
Pali, perhaps?
Re: Name That Language!
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:14 am
by Richard W
bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:49 amPali, perhaps?
Yes.
The sample text is part of the Mangala Sutta. The transcription comes from page 241 of Sai Kam Mong's
The History and Development of the Shan Scripts. The excerpt was:
jaaŋ maŋkalaŋ tuata tsa hi sinta yiŋ tsu tsa te wakaa
sutta naaŋ naati kat tsan hti ahta tiŋ tsan tsa maŋkalaŋ
te tsi taŋ teva tevana tsappa paa[pa]vinaa tsa phaŋ
tsappa lɔka hi tat taja maŋkalaŋ taŋ panaa ma he
eva me tsu taŋ ekaŋ tsama yaŋ phakkawa tsa wɔt hti
yaŋ wihalati seta wane [an]ahta pen li kat tsa
elaa me
ahtaa kho aan nya talaa tevataa
anik kantayaǎ latî ya anik kantaa waan naake
vaala kap paŋ seta [wa]naŋ ophǎ se tua
The usual transliteration of the standard form is:
yaṃ maṅgalaṃ dvādasahi cintayiṃsu sadevakā
sotthānaṃ nādhigacchanti aṭṭhatiṃsañca maṅgalaṃ
desitaṃ devadevena sabbapāpa vināsanaṃ
sabbalokahitatthāya maṅgalaṃ taṃ bhaṇāmahe
evaṃ me sutaṃ ekaṃ samayaṃ bhagavā sāvatthī-
yaṃ viharati jetavane anāthapiṇḍikassa
ārāme
atha kho aññatarā devatā
abhikkantāya rattiyā abhikkantavaṇṇā ke-
valakappaṃ jetavanaṃ obhāsetvā
There do seem to be a lot of irregularities in the correspondence, but some seem to be features of the regional Pali rather than textual corruption (or mishearing). The Tai consonant shift is quite visible, as are Shan features.
Re: Name That Language!
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:24 am
by bradrn
Huh, I honestly was not expecting that — that was a
weird transcription you found there. (I actually had considered Indo-Aryan in general and Pali in particular, but rejected it as it looked nothing like the sample text.)
One question: how does Pali have L1 Tai speakers? As far as I can see, the two aren’t particularly close together geographically.
Next text:
Karu im top laim kankula diyangka. Im teikim rarraj dat karuma nyanuny ngarlakangka an warlaku kanyjurrangka. Dat diyangku i bin jak im na karu an warlaku kanyjurrak, klifnginyma. Tubala baldan kujarrapparni karu an warlaku ngawangkirri jirrpu.
Re: Name That Language!
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:04 am
by cedh
bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:24 am
Karu im top laim kankula diyangka. Im teikim rarraj dat karuma nyanuny ngarlakangka an warlaku kanyjurrangka. Dat diyangku i bin jak im na karu an warlaku kanyjurrak, klifnginyma. Tubala baldan kujarrapparni karu an warlaku ngawangkirri jirrpu.
Is this language spoken in a desert?
Do this language's speakers typically orient themselves according to absolute cardinal directions (i.e. "north/south" rather than "right/left")?
Does the <f> in <klifnginyma> represent a regular phoneme of this language?
Re: Name That Language!
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:09 am
by Aero
bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:24 am
Karu im top laim kankula diyangka. Im teikim rarraj dat karuma nyanuny ngarlakangka an warlaku kanyjurrangka. Dat diyangku i bin jak im na karu an warlaku kanyjurrak, klifnginyma. Tubala baldan kujarrapparni karu an warlaku ngawangkirri jirrpu.
Ngankikurrunkurr/Nganʼgityemerri? Not many Australian languages have got /f/.
Orthography doesn’t match up. The other Australian Aboriginal language with /f/ is Kunjen which also has a series of preoccluded nasals that’s wholly absent from the text. Correcting my guess, so is it Gurindji Kriol?
Re: Name That Language!
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:00 pm
by Karch
It probably is Gurindji Kriol, but on the off chance it isn't, is it Light Warlpiri?
Re: Name That Language!
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:40 pm
by Richard W
bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:24 am
One question: how does Pali have L1 Tai speakers? As far as I can see, the two aren’t particularly close together geographically.
That seems an odd question, so perhaps we aren't communicating.
The short answer is, effective missionary work, including catching the fancy of rulers. The abbot at our local temple is an L1 English speaker, and I'm pretty sure he speaks at least some Pali. A collected paper I once read listed the languages spoken by a group of Amazonian Indians, and they had to include Latin - the group included Roman Catholic priests. Rome's a fair way from the Amazon!
Re: Name That Language!
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:28 pm
by bradrn
Aero wrote: ↑Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:09 am
bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:24 am
Karu im top laim kankula diyangka. Im teikim rarraj dat karuma nyanuny ngarlakangka an warlaku kanyjurrangka. Dat diyangku i bin jak im na karu an warlaku kanyjurrak, klifnginyma. Tubala baldan kujarrapparni karu an warlaku ngawangkirri jirrpu.
Ngankikurrunkurr/Nganʼgityemerri? Not many Australian languages have got /f/.
Orthography doesn’t match up. The other Australian Aboriginal language with /f/ is Kunjen which also has a series of preoccluded nasals that’s wholly absent from the text. Correcting my guess, so is it Gurindji Kriol?
Yes, very good, it is indeed Gurindji Kriol.
Re: Name That Language!
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:53 pm
by bradrn
Richard W wrote: ↑Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:40 pm
bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:24 am
One question: how does Pali have L1 Tai speakers? As far as I can see, the two aren’t particularly close together geographically.
That seems an odd question, so perhaps we aren't communicating.
The short answer is, effective missionary work, including catching the fancy of rulers. The abbot at our local temple is an L1 English speaker, and I'm pretty sure he speaks at least some Pali. A collected paper I once read listed the languages spoken by a group of Amazonian Indians, and they had to include Latin - the group included Roman Catholic priests. Rome's a fair way from the Amazon!
Ah, OK. I thought you meant that the same people who once natively spoke Pali now speak a Tai language.
Re: Name That Language!
Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:58 am
by Richard W
bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:53 pm
Ah, OK. I thought you meant that the same people who once natively spoke Pali now speak a Tai language.
The closest to that that I know of might have been with the Tai language Ahom, but in the end Ahom was replaced by the Indic language Assamese. Pali's a bit funny with regard to native speakers. It looks like an eastern dialect transformed to a more conservative western dialect, and so a specialist register before it became a separate language.
Re: Name That Language!
Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:03 pm
by Raholeun
Let us resuscitate this nice old thread with a name language for y'all to guess:
núnika antúka nṹĩ ʃitá ʃitámhakua ɨ ́tsɨkɨʃtahaʃ túsa anɨntáimtakua tsapúhi puháu
wáinkaik dúʃakam máutayamɨ
dútika maá dúwi hiŋkahá hukí tsukapsá minitáyamɨ ̃
Re: Name That Language!
Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:24 pm
by Karch
Looks suspiciously like Aguaruna (which I posted in the Romanization Challenge thread back on the old board) to me, but if not, is it Jivaroan?
Re: Name That Language!
Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:59 am
by Raholeun
Karch wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:24 pm
Looks suspiciously like Aguaruna
Jackpot! That is impressive.
Re: Name That Language!
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:08 pm
by Karch
Now that I have my computer back here's a new text:
mæ ljo bigce siʔhæʔceka bari tæn kala poel aʔloʔcmu diŋke. bigtaceʔka bari kɽiloʔnɖæ ɖiʔpiaʔceʔka bari hɽiŋ toŋgwarla ɖile ɖwa ugnturiaʔ wigke. wigla ɖwa wigce kela ɖwa muta alæʔke ljo haboʔ boke. ljo haboʔbola huŋdæke bæke. selamboeʔ huŋdæke bæke ɖe bobo muta ejograŋla ljo læʔke ɖakce basoŋke. goɽæo ljo wege. ljo wela mmwiŋ mæʔbare baya ɖokra sgwa kece giŋsiaʔ giŋsiaʔ nlugce clæ clæ ugboʔceka bari moʔmnægne buti bwaʔtarce mmwiŋ unæŋu latoʔceʔka mæ bigcog ɖæte bbigɖiŋke ljo.