Zompist Bboard Again

Also /ˈvalkəɹi/

"theta"

Do Brits really say it with /i:/? What do Aussies and Kiwis say?

i used to say all those Greek letters with /i/ because Im half Greek and learned the letters with the Greek pronunciation. I carried that over to mathematics and wrote science fiction stories about a planet named Theta. It wasnt until college that I finally acquiesced to using the proper American pronunciatoons instead of saying "well Im Greek and thats how they say it in Greece" etc. It wasnt theta that got me to switch though, it was my saying "moo" for μ. (and yes i know its /mi ni/ etc in ModGk)

The Church of Scientology apparently uses the /e/ pronunciation for its thetans.

Ser wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:09 pm "theta"

Do Brits really say it with /i:/?

Yes

For reference, I pronounce the names of the greek alphabet as:

ælfə	iːtə	nuː	taʊ̯
biːtə	θiːtə	ksaj	ʊpsɪlɔn
gæmə	ajəʊ̯tə	ɔmɪkɹɔn	faj
dɛltə	kæpə	paj	kai
ɛpsɪlɔn	læmdə	ɹəʊ̯	psai
ziːtə	muː	sɪgmə	əmiːgə

so "moo noo" is real? i basically had your pronunciations then, except that i still began with /o/ in omega and didnt pronounce the /p/ in psi. oh and i guess i said /ksi/ for ksi, not rhyming with the others.

I dont remember if i had split pronunciations for beta software testing vs beta the letter, and its possible i never encountered the software sense until i was all grown up. still i have a vague memory of thinking /bitə/ when i saw the word beta in print in the software context early on.

for what its worth, i had a teacher who said /fi:/ for phi, which even i did not do. (perh because i learned early on that pi was not /pi:/ and generalized it to the others except /ksi/)

edit: one more i missed .... for omega i basically just said /o'megə/ ... not with /i:/, again likely because i picked it up from Greek first

Now that I think about it, I actually pronounce μ in isolation as /mjuː/

quinterbeck wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:23 pm Now that I think about it, I actually pronounce μ in isolation as /mjuː/

I would expect 'nu' and 'new' to be homophones. /ksaɪ/ ought to be an affectation, but I just can’t remember hearing /zaɪ/ recently.

Richard W wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:40 pm

quinterbeck wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:23 pm Now that I think about it, I actually pronounce μ in isolation as /mjuː/

I would expect 'nu' and 'new' to be homophones. /ksaɪ/ ought to be an affectation, but I just can’t remember hearing /zaɪ/ recently.

I use /ksaɪ/ and /psaɪ/ because I find them more distinctive than the traditional pronunciations.

My pronunciations are essentially the same as quinterbeck's except for
/mjuː/
/njuː/
/ˈoʊmɪkɹɔn/
/ˈoʊmɪgə/

Richard W wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:40 pmI would expect 'nu' and 'new' to be homophones. /ksaɪ/ ought to be an affectation, but I just can’t remember hearing /zaɪ/ recently.

Off-topic question, but do you feel your use of "ought to be" here is a synonym of "should be, is probably" or "has got to be, must be"?

Ser wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:41 pm

Richard W wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:40 pmI would expect 'nu' and 'new' to be homophones. /ksaɪ/ ought to be an affectation, but I just can’t remember hearing /zaɪ/ recently.

Off-topic question, but do you feel your use of "ought to be" here is a synonym of "should be, is probably" or "has got to be, must be"?

'Should be' rather than 'is probably'. It's almost as 'must be', but adds that the derivation is from logic that is not to be trusted (e.g. dodgy starting assumptions or counter-examples).

I’d like to say the Greek alphabet as authentically as possible, but that would probably confuse people, so usually I end up saying something like this:

/ˈælfɐ/
/ˈbitɐ~ˈbe͡itɐ/
/ˈgæmɐ/
/ˈdeltɐ/
/ˈepsilon/
/ˈzitɐ~ˈze͡itɐ/
/ˈetɐ~ˈe͡itɐ/
/͡ɑiˈjə͡utɐ~iˈjotɐ/
/ˈkæpɐ/
/ˈlæmbdɐ/
/mu/
/nu/
/ˈksi~ˈksɑ͡i/
/ˈomikron/
/pɑ͡i/
/ɹə͡u/
/ˈsɪɡmɐ/
/tæ͡u/
/ˈupsilon~ˈypsilon/
/fi~fɑ͡i/
/ki~kɑ͡i/
/psi~psɑ͡i/
/oˈmeɡa/

quinterbeck wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:40 pm For reference, I pronounce the names of the greek alphabet as: (...) əmiːgə

Amiga? :)


JAL

I had no idea that people said [ks] and [ps] sometimes for xi and psi. This affectation seems to have some degree of widespread use, although I was only familiar with [zaɪ] (xi) and [saɪ] (psi).



Online dictionaries tend to claim that "Talmud" and "talmudic" are /ˈtɑlmʊd ˈtælmʊd/ and /tɑlˈmʊdik tælˈmʊdik/. I imagine that, as with many such words, the version with /æ/ is the only one used among Brits and Aussies, Canadians tend to use /æ/ but sometimes /ɑ/, and Americans use /ɑ/, cf. manga US and some Canadians /ˈmɑŋgə/, UK/Australia and many Canadians /ˈmæŋgə/.

Now my question is, would you guys accept /u/ (i.e. Brit/Aussie /u:/) here as well? Wiktionary weirdly lists "Talmud" as /ˈtɒlˌmuːd/ and even /ˈtælməd/, but "talmudic" still has the normally listed pronunciations.

Only /ˈtælmʊd~ˈtælməd/ for me, a Brit.

KathTheDragon wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:59 pmOnly /ˈtælmʊd~ˈtælməd/ for me, a Brit.

These are actually the preferred pronunciations IMD as well. I generally have [ɑ] before coda /l/, but somehow it sounds a little affected here. The /u:/ pronunciation sounds like someone unfamiliar with the word attempting it for the first time.

KathTheDragon wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:59 pm Only /ˈtælmʊd~ˈtælməd/ for me, a Brit.

These are my pronunciations too, and I am an American.

I’m Jewish; I say it /ˈtalmud talˈmudɪk/. (Though phonetically that usually comes out as [ˈtˢɐwmʊd tˢɐwˈmʊdɘkʰ], or sometimes [ˈtalmud talˈmudɪk] if I happen to be using a more Hebrew pronunciation.) I’ve never heard it with /æ/ or /ɑ/; those sound really weird to me (though no worse than such commonly mangled pronunciations as /ˈʃæbæt/ or /ˈpɛ͡isæh/).

About Shabbat, though, I am personally used to people just saying /ˈsæbəθ/ (realized IMD as [ˈsɛːbɘθ]) than trying to say Shabbat.

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:49 pm I’m Jewish; I say it /ˈtalmud talˈmudɪk/. (Though phonetically that usually comes out as [ˈtˢɐwmʊd tˢɐwˈmʊdɘkʰ], or sometimes [ˈtalmud talˈmudɪk] if I happen to be using a more Hebrew pronunciation.) I’ve never heard it with /æ/ or /ɑ/; those sound really weird to me (though no worse than such commonly mangled pronunciations as /ˈʃæbæt/ or /ˈpɛ͡isæh/).

I should note that the inventory of open and open-mid vowels here are [a ɒ] and [ɛ~ɛə ɜ ʌ], mapped to /ɑ ɔ/ and /æ ɛ ʌ/ respectively, with the two default "low" vowels being [ɛ~ɛə a]; fully anglicized words tend to get [ɛ~ɛə] while foreign and especially hyperforeign words get [a] by default. In the case of Talmud, to me it feels rather anglicized, and hence it gets [ɛ~ɛə]; pronouncing it with [a] would emphasize its foreignness.