Zompist Bboard Again

alynnidalar wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:00 pm Where do you stop at? Should we not treat a drunk driver who gets in an accident? Or a lifelong smoker who exposed untold numbers of bystanders to secondhand smoke? How about someone who drove too fast on icy roads--do they get kicked to the curb because, well, they had the ability to choose safer behavior and refused to do so? Let's just start shooting all convicted murderers in the head. After all, they chose to kill somebody, so it's only right they be killed in return.

What a society you wish you lived in! I don't know how to explain that it is a good and moral thing to care about others, even if they don't care about you. I don't know how to explain that preserving life, even of people who have risked others' lives, is a noble goal. I don't know how to explain that some things are right, even if they are exhausting.

And one of those things is that every person deserves access to healthcare. Even if they brought their problems upon themselves. Even if they brought problems on others.

That said, in this case the matter is that oftentimes we have to choose between who to treat and who not to treat. A hospital bed taken up by someone with COVID may be a hospital bed denied to someone suffering from a heart attack or cancer. People - and not just people who got severe COVID through choosing not to get vaccinated, but also people suffering from all kinds of medical emergencies - die because hospitals are simply full. So in the end we have to deny someone a hospital bed - and it only makes sense to deny them to those not suffering the most serious medical emergencies - including not-quite-as-severe cases of COVID.

True enough. That's the real definition of triage.

Before things get out of hand, we should maybe put this argument to rest. The most fervent anti-vaxxer is entitled to the same level of care as someone who washes their hands ten times a day. Public health infrastructure is an essential part of our civilization, and you shouldn't have to "earn" it any more than you earn the right to protection from crime, or to breathe clean air. No oncologist is going to treat your lung cancer any less because you're a life long smoker, and no worthy doctor or hospital is going to treat your Covid case any less because you made decisions that increased your risk. I also made decisions that increase my risk by working in a classroom full of children*. If I got Covid and somebody told me to wait in line behind the people who "didn't put themselves at risk," I would literally lose my mind. It would be on the news.

Meanwhile, in actual Covid news, Omicron has allowed the US to pass a major threshold. The disease has now officially killed 1% of senior citizens. Remember when Joe Biden was like "one in a thousand African Americans has died" and people were like "That can't be right, right?" Well, we've entered the realm of death tolls high enough that we don't have to use word problems any more. We can just use nice, regular metrics like percentages, without even so much as a decimal point!

By my math, something like one in five Americans have had Covid at least once, so maybe soon we can have that herd immunity the Republicans have been promising us. Any day now.

*EDIT: literally as I was writing this, I was being contact traced due to a kid who tested positive. I got out of quarantine less than seven days ago, and now I'm back in. Hurray!

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:38 pmBy my math, something like one in five Americans have had Covid at least once

That's one of the more conservative estimates I've seen, based--I believe--on survey data. Other projections put the percentage at twice that due to Omicron. (About 40% of infections seems to be asymptomatic and the milder cases mimic ordinary cold symptoms, so a lot of people have contracted it without realising it.)

In Chicago, we've finally fallen back to where we were this time last year on most measures. I finally felt comfortable to go out to a bar last weekend and I'll be entertaining folks in my home again this coming Saturday.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:46 am I don't know about the US or other countries really.
But in France the situation is fucked up for reasons that are only indirectly related to COVID.

The health system is collapsing as a direct result of political decisions. COVID was kind of the last straw, but even without it the system was in a pretty sorry state. Hospitals are underfunded, nurses and doctors are overworked and underpaid, so they quit. You can't handle any kind of health crisis if you don't have doctors, and as it happens, we don't have doctors because of political decisions that long predate COVID.

In mainland France (as opposed to overseas territories like la Réunion where the situation is different) about 90% of the population is vaccinated -- that's as good as it's ever going to get -- intensive care units are still overwhelmed.

In the overseas départements and territories, the problem is twofold. First, hospitals are even more underfunded that in metropolitan France. Second, people living there don't trust the government at all, for complex reasons that mostly revolve around being treated like colonial subjects. And since they don't trust the governments on anything, they don't trust it on vaccine either... So you get a lot of anti-vaxxers. That's both really really stupid and completely understandable.

You're right about the underfunding. And to some extent about not trusting the government. But I do get that the antivaxxers were unheard-of here before computerphones and internet networks (social or antisocial?) were so widespread...

At least, we had a cyclone all day yesterday and the day before until this morning so we got a day or two of lockdown in one way.

As of next Friday (the 25th), the Dutch government will try the "lift almost all rules" approach again, where everything except for mask wearing on public transportation will largely be downgraded to "urgent advice". The 1.5-meter distancing rule, indoor masks except for public transport, and work-from-home all become recommendations, with the advice also being to work from home 50% of the time rather than "except when unavoidable", and the access pass will also be cancelled. We will, however, still be recommended to also do self-tests before going to work and meeting people, and the quarantine rules will remain in effect for positive cases (though the minimum quarantine time is reduced to 5 days, provided you're symptom-free for 24 hours).

Notably, though, it turns out a coworker of mine tested positive on a self-test, and I saw this person on Friday (but wasn't in direct contact with him). Per the official rules, I don't have to quarantine since I'm not showing symptoms and I've gotten a booster shot, but, still, extra alertness for the next few days. (Fun!) My self-tests today have come up negative, so no concern, but I figure I'll be going through quite a few self-tests this week as a precaution...

california is basically doing the same thing, as well as the county i live in. looking forward to another spike in a month or two

People here in WI haven't been even trying to do anything w.r.t. aside from getting vaccinated and boosted (unless they're antivaxxers), wearing masks on public transportation as federally mandated, sometimes wearing masks in schools as locally mandated, and sometimes wearing masks in businesses depending on the businesses' rules and what they feel like doing.

Germany goes for lifting most restrictions in Mid-March. Let's see how that will work out.

hwhatting wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 1:33 pmGermany goes for lifting most restrictions in Mid-March. Let's see how that will work out.

The State of Illinois and the City of Chicago are lifting them on March 1st, so maybe we'll be able to give y'all a preview. I just got the official e-mail from my university saying that masks will not be universally required in any indoor spaces except classrooms. They'll still be required on shuttles and it seems like the health centre can set its own policy.

So my flatmate has Covid. I've got no idea how I'm supposed to isolate from someone who lives in the same apartment as me.

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:33 am So my flatmate has Covid. I've got no idea how I'm supposed to isolate from someone who lives in the same apartment as me.

The advice I've seen on that is to avoid using the same rooms at the same time, to wear masks in your flat, especially when you are in the same room, and airing as much as possible.

hwhatting wrote: ↑Tue Jul 12, 2022 9:37 am The advice I've seen on that is to avoid using the same rooms at the same time, to wear masks in your flat, especially when you are in the same room, and airing as much as possible.

Thank you!

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:33 am So my flatmate has Covid. I've got no idea how I'm supposed to isolate from someone who lives in the same apartment as me.

Also, however much you're washing your hands, wash your hands more.

Air circulation seems to be key. A friend of mine has been linking to recent studies showing that even just cracking the windows makes a significant difference in virus dispersal indoors. (Unfortunately, we have a whole generation here who were constantly told by our parents that they weren't paying to heat/cool the whole outdoors so cracking the windows during the dog days is tough sell to us.)

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:39 pm Air circulation seems to be key. A friend of mine has been linking to recent studies showing that even just cracking the windows makes a significant difference in virus dispersal indoors. (Unfortunately, we have a whole generation here who were constantly told by our parents that they weren't paying to heat/cool the whole outdoors so cracking the windows during the dog days is tough sell to us.)

I think that's a nice thing about not really having A/C here in Europe: you crack the windows already for ventilation and cooling. (That's how I survive. I actually survived three summers in Ohio without A/C by just ventilating my apartment as much as possible.)


I actually finally got Covid two weeks ago during a business trip to the UK, but the symptoms ended up being extremely mild for me: felt the whole time like an allergy outbreak. Not sure if I chalk it up to "triply stabbed", "lucky roll of the dice", or a combination thereof, but hopefully this means no surprises for my next business trip (to Portugal in two weeks!).

doctor shark wrote: ↑Tue Jul 12, 2022 3:21 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:39 pm Air circulation seems to be key. A friend of mine has been linking to recent studies showing that even just cracking the windows makes a significant difference in virus dispersal indoors. (Unfortunately, we have a whole generation here who were constantly told by our parents that they weren't paying to heat/cool the whole outdoors so cracking the windows during the dog days is tough sell to us.)

I think that's a nice thing about not really having A/C here in Europe: you crack the windows already for ventilation and cooling. (That's how I survive. I actually survived three summers in Ohio without A/C by just ventilating my apartment as much as possible.)

I survived ten summers in Missouri without AC. Not interested in doing that again ever.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 12, 2022 4:02 pm

doctor shark wrote: ↑Tue Jul 12, 2022 3:21 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:39 pm Air circulation seems to be key. A friend of mine has been linking to recent studies showing that even just cracking the windows makes a significant difference in virus dispersal indoors. (Unfortunately, we have a whole generation here who were constantly told by our parents that they weren't paying to heat/cool the whole outdoors so cracking the windows during the dog days is tough sell to us.)

I think that's a nice thing about not really having A/C here in Europe: you crack the windows already for ventilation and cooling. (That's how I survive. I actually survived three summers in Ohio without A/C by just ventilating my apartment as much as possible.)

I survived ten summers in Missouri without AC. Not interested in doing that again ever.

I grew up in a house here in Wisconsin without AC, and I'm glad I now have air conditioning even in Wisconsin.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:39 pm Also, however much you're washing your hands, wash your hands more.

Thank you!

(Unfortunately, we have a whole generation here who were constantly told by our parents that they weren't paying to heat/cool the whole outdoors so cracking the windows during the dog days is tough sell to us.)

What doctor shark said. Right now, windows here are open anyway; it would be a lot more difficult in winter.

I had AC in my old flat in the city centre of Saint-Denis (so even closer to the coast and even more concretised part of the subtropical island). I used so little I forgot what this funny cable coming out of the wall was for.

And that's it: looks like I've got Covid myself now. Viruses are bad.