Zompist Bboard Again

About postalveolars, I note that some people here such as my parents and my ex have [tʂ(ʰ)ɻ] and [tʂɻ~dʐɻ] for /tr/ and /dr/, and I highly suspect I did as a little kid, because I did not arrive at my present pronunciations of [tʃ(ʰ)ɻʁ] and [tʃɻʁ] ([ɻʁ] here is a single coarticulated phone) until I was in elementary school.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:47 pm I notice that the voice in Google Maps on my phone uses [tɕʰ] in turn...

Does this result in a turn-churn merger?

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:52 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:47 pm I notice that the voice in Google Maps on my phone uses [tɕʰ] in turn...

Does this result in a turn-churn merger?

Possiblly, but I notice that [tɕʰ] from initial /tɜr/ tends to have relatively weak frication (as opposed to [tɕʰ] from /tʃɜr/ or [tɕ] from -/tʃər/ or -/tər/ which has stronger frication), preventing this merger in many cases.

I recently learned that the title of the official English translation of the "Little Red Book" is Quotations from Chairman Mao. Which got me curious: is that, strictly speaking, "correct" English? Shouldn't it be Quotations by Chairman Mao?

(I left out his given name to avoid the transliteration issue.)

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:56 am I recently learned that the title of the official English translation of the "Little Red Book" is Quotations from Chairman Mao. Which got me curious: is that, strictly speaking, "correct" English? Shouldn't it be Quotations by Chairman Mao?

(I left out his given name to avoid the transliteration issue.)

Yes, normally one uses by in English when referring to something written being written by someone. Here by could refer to the person doing the quoting rather than the person being quoted; it works either way. From here, OTOH, while not being quite as standard of a usage, makes it clear that it is Chairman Mao who is being quoted, rather than that the Little Red Book is a book of quotations of other people which are collected by Chairman Mao.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 12:11 pm
Yes, normally one uses by in English when referring to something written being written by someone. Here by could refer to the person doing the quoting rather than the person being quoted; it works either way. From here, OTOH, while not being quite as standard of a usage, makes it clear that it is Chairman Mao who is being quoted, rather than that the Little Red Book is a book of quotations of other people which are collected by Chairman Mao.

Thank you!

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:56 am I recently learned that the title of the official English translation of the "Little Red Book" is Quotations from Chairman Mao. Which got me curious: is that, strictly speaking, "correct" English? Shouldn't it be Quotations by Chairman Mao?

From is fine; it implies that the book is a selection and that there's more where that comes from. As it is in fact a set of brief quotes from longer works, it's a good representation.

Your suggestion Quotations by Chairman Mao sounds off to me. Maybe it's because we often use the construction "<Title> by <Author>", so we avoid "by <proper name>" in the title itself.

Yet another option is of— I have a copy of Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam.

Now, what I'd like to know is, why is the original title 毛主席语录 and not 毛主席的语录?

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:12 pm From is fine; it implies that the book is a selection and that there's more where that comes from. As it is in fact a set of brief quotes from longer works, it's a good representation.

Your suggestion Quotations by Chairman Mao sounds off to me. Maybe it's because we often use the construction "<Title> by <Author>", so we avoid "by <proper name>" in the title itself.

Yet another option is of— I have a copy of Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam.

Thank you, too!

Now, what I'd like to know is, why is the original title 毛主席语录 and not 毛主席的语录?

Not knowing any Chinese, I don't know about that; perhaps you could expand?

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:40 am

Now, what I'd like to know is, why is the original title 毛主席语录 and not 毛主席的语录?

Not knowing any Chinese, I don't know about that; perhaps you could expand?

Sure... the title is Máo Zhǔxí Yǔlù, literally "Mao chairman quotation". I would expect Máo Zhǔxí de Yǔlù, using the genitive or subordinating particle de. You can sometimes get away with concatenation for possession, e.g. wǒ àirén "my wife"; but this is very limited.

Of course, we could actually say "Chairman Mao quotations" in English!

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:27 am
Sure... the title is Máo Zhǔxí Yǔlù, literally "Mao chairman quotation". I would expect Máo Zhǔxí de Yǔlù, using the genitive or subordinating particle de. You can sometimes get away with concatenation for possession, e.g. wǒ àirén "my wife"; but this is very limited.

Thank you! Perhaps a more "telegram-like" style was in vogue in Mao-era China?

That reminds me of how The Tale of Genji in Japanese is 源氏物語 (Genji Monogatari), with no genitive particle. I wonder if it might be an areal stylistic title thing.

Does anyone else who is cot-caught unmerged have LOT in -naut (e.g. astronaut) despite having THOUGHT in nautical?

Completely different question: what is the usual English term for a sub-national boundary line between jurisdictions or administrative divisions, such as states, counties, provinces, or municipalities? Is that called a "border"? And if not, what is it called then?

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:55 am Completely different question: what is the usual English term for a sub-national boundary line between jurisdictions or administrative divisions, such as states, counties, provinces, or municipalities? Is that called a "border"? And if not, what is it called then?

One normally speaks of a line, as in a state line, county line, city line etc.

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:55 am Completely different question: what is the usual English term for a sub-national boundary line between jurisdictions or administrative divisions, such as states, counties, provinces, or municipalities? Is that called a "border"? And if not, what is it called then?

Both "boundary" and "border" are possible, but "border" tends to be reserved for more important ones, especially the ones between England and Scotland (often just called "the Border" if there's a bit of context) and England and Wales. City boundaries would usually be called just that.

Unlike Travis, I wouldn't use "city line" or "county line", which strike me as American.

Thank you!

Note that one can also speak of city limits as well.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:38 am Does anyone else who is cot-caught unmerged have LOT in -naut (e.g. astronaut) despite having THOUGHT in nautical?

Indeed I do. (I have the Northern Cities Vowel Shift) Honestly never thought about it before.

anteallach wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 1:13 pm Both "boundary" and "border" are possible, but "border" tends to be reserved for more important ones, especially the ones between England and Scotland (often just called "the Border" if there's a bit of context) and England and Wales. City boundaries would usually be called just that.

I think 'border' tends to imply there's a real difference between the two sides, with borders between ceremonial counties and boundaries between parliamentary constituencies. But it depends on how parochial one is being.

One of the candidates for Supreme Court here in Wisconsin, Janet Protasiewicz, has her last name pronounced /ˌproʊtəˈseɪwɪts/ most commonly here. While the /wɪts/ pronunciation of -wicz is not unusual here - I knew someone from elementary school through high school who pronounced it in her name that very same way, what gets me is the pronunciation of -sie- as /seɪ/ - I would have expected /ʃɛ/ or /sɛ/ given the typical pronunciation of Polish names here. Any thoughts?