Zompist Bboard Again

Posted: **Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:36 pm**

I'm working on consonant mutations for my Dwarvish conlang. These will be inspired by both Celtic & Uralic mutations, but I'm starting with Celtic-ish mutations.

The question: Celtic languages have /m/ → /v/, which to me could be considered the "opening" type of mutation. However, I notice there's no examples of a corresponding /n/ → /z/, and I see no example of [n] → [z] in the Index Diachonica. Is having [n] → [z] unreasonable, along with a similar [ŋ] → [ɣ]?

My language also has /s/ with [z] being allophonic, so the lention sound change would actually be /n/ → /s/, or (I think) /n/ → /s~z/ to represent the allophones (not sure on the notation). However, this is a somewhat separate issue from simply having synchronic [n] → [z] and/or [ŋ] → [ɣ] changes.

Posted: **Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:49 pm**

Out of those three I would definitely call /n/ -> /z/ the most suspect; the history of m-lenition in Celtic involves an intermediate nasalized labial fricative. That could plausibly also happen with /ŋ/, but with /n/ your problem is the sibilance. That said, there's nothing really stopping you from doing something like [n] -> [ɹ̃] -> [z].

Posted: **Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:52 pm**

I had /n/ mutating to /z/ in one of my conlangs and nobody complained, so if it's good enough for me I don't see why it shouldn't be good enough for you

Posted: **Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:06 pm**

Hallow XIII wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:49 pm That said, there's nothing really stopping you from doing something like [n] -> [ɹ̃] -> [z].

Could that be a diachronic justification for [n] → [z], where it was originally [n] → [ɹ̃] and then [ɹ̃] universally changed to [z]?

Alternatively, since I have /ʀ/, perhaps I should have /n/ debuccalize to /ʀ/? /ŋ/ could either have the same debuccalization, or it could follow the example of Scottish Gaelic /ɲ/ → /n/ and have /ŋ/ → /n/.

alice wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:52 pm I had /n/ mutating to /z/ in one of my conlangs and nobody complained, so if it's good enough for me I don't see why it shouldn't be good enough for you

I'll see what I can do within the "legal" limits of naturalistic conlanging, but if I hate the result, I'll maybe go this route and just Jedi hand-wave it.

Posted: **Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:10 pm**

n > l > ɮ > z

Posted: **Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:29 pm**

I've long felt that /m/ can be an honorary voiced oral stop. As insular Celtic voiced stops fricativised intervocally, /m/ went along with them.

Posted: **Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:51 pm**

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:10 pm n > l > ɮ > z

Definitely a path. Could that be restricted to places where mutation would be found, as in word-initially and only when following another word that ends in a stop?

Richard W wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:29 pm I've long felt that /m/ can be an honorary voiced oral stop. As insular Celtic voiced stops fricativised intervocally, /m/ went along with them.

That's how it feels to me after looking at Celtic mutations the past couple days. I was hoping /n/ would be jealous of all the places /m/ got to go and tag along for the ride.

Posted: **Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:20 pm**

Vardelm wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:51 pm
Nortaneous wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:10 pm n > l > ɮ > z
Definitely a path. Could that be restricted to places where mutation would be found, as in word-initially and only when following another word that ends in a stop?

The change n > l can be syllable initial only, thought the examples I can think of are in languages without final liquids.

The behaviour of Korean ㄹ r offers an approximation to the opposite of what you actually asked for. Intervocally, in compound words it's [ɾ] syllable-initially, but otherwise it's generally [n] syllable-initially. Unfortunately for analogy, it appears to derive from a rhotic diachronically.

Posted: **Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:25 pm**

Interestingly, I just found ŋ → x on the Index Diachronica.

https://chridd.nfshost.com/diachronica/search?q=x

#27 Maya to Ixilean, Kaqchikel-Tz’utujil, Core K’iche’, and Mamean. I would suppose that if this can happen without condition, then it could happen intervocalically.

Posted: **Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:12 pm**

As mentioned, the Celtic /m/ > /v/ mutation seems to be ultimately based on lenition of intervocalic /m/ to something like [β̃~w̃]. It's the same as the mutation of /b/. The way I would expect [n] and [ŋ] to go if similarly lenited would be to [ɾ̃] and [ɰ̃] respectively.

For further developments, you could possibly have [ɾ̃] > [ɾ] > [ɹ] > [z] as mentioned, or [ɾ̃] > [ð]. For [ɰ̃], it could develop to [ɣ] or [ʁ] but I'd expect it to stay voiced intervocalically if /s/ has an intervocalic allophone [z].

Based on the inventory given in your consonants table, given the mutations /m mʲ/ > /v vʲ/, and the stipulation that /n nʲ ŋ ŋʲ/ mutate, I would be least surprised to see /n nʲ ŋ ŋʲ/ > /ð ðʲ x xʲ/ (merging I'd assume with the mutations of /d̪ dʲ g gʲ/) although other outcomes are possible.

Posted: **Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:54 pm**

Estav wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:12 pm Based on the inventory given in your consonants table, given the mutations /m mʲ/ > /v vʲ/, and the stipulation that /n nʲ ŋ ŋʲ/ mutate, I would be least surprised to see /n nʲ ŋ ŋʲ/ > /ð ðʲ x xʲ/ (merging I'd assume with the mutations of /d̪ dʲ g gʲ/) although other outcomes are possible.

Ooohhh... I LIKE /n nʲ ŋ ŋʲ/ > /ð ðʲ x xʲ/!!! I do indeed have /d̪ dʲ/ > /ð ðʲ/, so that is nicely parallel to /b bʲ/ > /v vʲ/. I don't know if it's realistic or not (phonology is just not my jam), but it's appealing.

I should mention that /ð/ should be changed to /θ/. My intention was the fricatives from alveolar on back should be voiceless, with optional voiced allophone between vowels. That's an incidental detail, and I don't think affects the suggestions here.

Posted: **Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:49 am**

Vardelm wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:36 pmThe question: Celtic languages have /m/ → /v/, which to me could be considered the "opening" type of mutation. However, I notice there's no examples of a corresponding /n/ → /z/, and I see no example of [n] → [z] in the Index Diachonica. Is having [n] → [z] unreasonable, along with a similar [ŋ] → [ɣ]?

My language also has /s/ with [z] being allophonic, so the lention sound change would actually be /n/ → /s/, or (I think) /n/ → /s~z/ to represent the allophones (not sure on the notation). However, this is a somewhat separate issue from simply having synchronic [n] → [z] and/or [ŋ] → [ɣ] changes.

There's a few obscure Romance languages that have interesting lenitions of /n/, including Istro-Romanian that has intervocalic *n > r. I dunno about many with n > z, but it doesn't sound implausible.

Generally though, nasals tend to lenite as approximants or similar sonorants. Celtic *m at first shifted to /w᷉/ and then /v/. I haven't seen many examples of lenited ŋ, but I'd imagine something similar.

Posted: **Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:55 am**

Znex wrote: ↑Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:49 am There's a few obscure Romance languages that have interesting lenitions of /n/, including Istro-Romanian that has intervocalic *n > r. I dunno about many with n > z, but it doesn't sound implausible.

Generally though, nasals tend to lenite as approximants or similar sonorants. Celtic *m at first shifted to /w᷉/ and then /v/. I haven't seen many examples of lenited ŋ, but I'd imagine something similar.

Right now, I'm leaning towards /n nʲ/ > /ð ðʲ/ per Estav's suggestion. I think this could originally be something like /n nʲ/ > /r~ɹ~ɾ rʲ~ɾʲ/, then shifting to /ð ðʲ/. In the Index Diachronica, I see Tai-Kadai has {r,r̥} > ð, and Siouan-Iroquoian has r → ð / x_. Additionally, Siouan-Iroquoian has n → ð / _{ã,ẽ,õ}, which seems somewhat similar to the /m/ > /w᷉/ change in Celtic you mention. Proto-Norse to Old Norse has nː → ð / _{r,ʀ}. None of these are exactly what I'm looking for here, but they all are in the ballpark such that /n nʲ/ > /ð ðʲ/ doesn't seem completely unrealistic.

Right now, I also have a lenition of /x/ > /ʀ/. I have it in mind that this was originally /x/ > /ɰ/, with /ɰ/ later changing to /ʀ~ʁ/. If there was a shift of /r~ɹ~ɾ/ > /ð/, it seems logical-ish that /ɰ/ might have become more rhotic.

EDIT:
BTW, I've been looking through The Historical Origin of Consonant Mutation in the Atlantic Languages by Merrill. LOTS of good info on consonant mutation in various languages.

Posted: **Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:40 pm**

Richard W wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:29 pm I've long felt that /m/ can be an honorary voiced oral stop. As insular Celtic voiced stops fricativised intervocally, /m/ went along with them.

What are some examples outside of insular Celtic which can be seen as /m/ patterning with obstruents rather than the other nasals?

Posted: **Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:54 am**

Perhaps worth mentioning is /n/ > /ð/ before /r/ in Sindarin, as in Caradhras. If it was good enough for JRRT...

Posted: **Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:45 am**

anteallach wrote: ↑Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:40 pm
Richard W wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:29 pm I've long felt that /m/ can be an honorary voiced oral stop. As insular Celtic voiced stops fricativised intervocally, /m/ went along with them.
What are some examples outside of insular Celtic which can be seen as /m/ patterning with obstruents rather than the other nasals?

It occurs to me that however likely nasals or other sonorants will pattern with obstruents in lenition or fortition co-occurs quite often with fortis-lenis sets of consonants. Both Insular Celtic and Latin had widespread geminates in their lexicon (curiously, the particular sonorants that later underwent lenition each had their own geminate counterpart).

To elaborate:

More: show

Middle/New Indo-Aryan languages never really had consonant mutation, but some did have some extensive lenition as well to the point of complete elision, including of /m n/. Notably, this lenition occurs from Middle Indo-Aryan languages that had huge sets of geminate consonants.
eg.
Sans. grāma > Prk. gāma > Apbhr. gā̃və > Hindi gā̃ʋ~gā̃ō {village}
Sans. sthāna > Prk. thāna > Apbhr. thā̃və {station, place}

The broader system:

More: show

Posted: **Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:16 am**

I’ve found the following guide extremely useful for designing consonant mutation systems: https://web.archive.org/web/20150503182 ... tation.pdf

Posted: **Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:10 am**

alice wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:54 am Perhaps worth mentioning is /n/ > /ð/ before /r/ in Sindarin, as in Caradhras. If it was good enough for JRRT...

EEGADS!!! I can't believe I almost used a mutation from an ELVEN language in my DWARVEN language! The HORROR!!! Changing back to /n/ > /s/ immediately.

(OK, yeah, if the professor can do it....)

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:16 am I’ve found the following guide extremely useful for designing consonant mutation systems: https://web.archive.org/web/20150503182 ... tation.pdf

Looks like that's a prospectus for the dissertation I linked. Very similar material, but looks like there might be some mutation examples from a few different languages compared to the dissertation, which is always useful.

Posted: **Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:15 am**

Vardelm wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:10 am
bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:16 am I’ve found the following guide extremely useful for designing consonant mutation systems: https://web.archive.org/web/20150503182 ... tation.pdf
Looks like that's a prospectus for the dissertation I linked. Very similar material, but looks like there might be some mutation examples from a few different languages compared to the dissertation, which is always useful.

Huh, so it is. If only I’d known.

Posted: **Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:03 pm**

anteallach wrote: ↑Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:40 pm What are some examples outside of insular Celtic which can be seen as /m/ patterning with obstruents rather than the other nasals?

Initial clusters /ml/ and sometimes /mr/, seen in PIE and as /ml/ in written Tai. While other nasal + liquid clusters have been reconstructed for Proto-Tai, they seem much rarer and to have simplified unrecorded, and it's the /ml/ cluster that one sees in written Thai and written Northern Thai and actually hears in Saek, Wu-ming and occasionally Ahom.

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