Zompist Bboard Again

In chapter 4 of the Hobbit, Tolkien writes:

"It had killed hundreds of goblins in its time, when the fair elves of Gondolin hunted them in the hills or did battle before their walls."

Checking various translations, the translaters couldn't decide whether to translate "fair" with "beautiful" (the Dutch version) or "blond" (German, French and Spanish - I haven't checked my other copies of Italian and Danish). What do you think? Should it be beautiful or blond? Or, perhaps, is anyone of you an expert in Middle Earth, and actually knows whether the elves of Gondolin were blond or just beautiful?


JAL

I am not an expert on things Middle Earth at all, but in English fair in this kind of usage implies being both light-colored (of hair and/or of skin) and beautiful.

Heh, I was more or less afraid so... Funnily enough, both Danish and Italian have "beautiful" here, so its 3:3 for beautiful: blonde.


JAL

Yes, this usage of fair does have unfortunate implications...

This One Ring wiki page says that the "Fair Elves" referred to the Vanyar in particular, and that the Quenya vanyar refers to their "golden hair". So "blonde" would be a better interpretation.

(Side note: though I read the Silmarillion years ago, descriptions of the First Age read to me like word salad. "Very few individual Vanyar are named besides Imin, Ingwë, his sister (or possibly niece) Indis, and Amarië, who was in love with Finrod Felagund. Indis became the second wife of Finwë, the High King of the Ñoldor and the mother of both Fingolfin and Finarfin, the latter of which founded the only house of Ñoldorin Elves to sport golden Vanyarin hair.[2] After her husband was killed by Melkor in his attack on Formenos to attain the Silmarils [3], she returned to her people with her daughter Findis." Eek!)

It is my understanding that only those Elves of Vanyarin descent were blondes, and they were a minuscule portion of the Exiles.

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Vanyar#cite_note-s3-0 wrote:Nearly all full-blooded Vanyar were content to remain in Valinor and few were ever seen in Middle-earth

Noldor with blond hair included Finarfin and descendents (among them Galadriel).

The people of Gondolin were a mix of Noldorin and Sindarin Elves. One of them, Glorfindel, had hair explicitly described as "shining gold", but his lineage is unknown.

All in all, it seems to me to be that translating "fair" as "beautiful" is the better interpretation.

Vilike wrote: ↑Wed Dec 22, 2021 4:33 amAll in all, it seems to me to be that translating "fair" as "beautiful" is the better interpretation.

I'm leaning towards that, as (so I found after some googling) that in The Book of Lost Tales, Part Two, Tolkien wrote about the "fair houses" of Gondolin ("Now the streets of Gondolin were paved with stone and wide, kerbed with marble, and fair houses and courts amid gardens of bright flowers"). There's a lot of other "fair"s there, like ".. that most fair maid. Fair indeed she was and brave thereto; ...", "... the ways of that fair city.", "...there women and maids grew fair again", "... her fair form lay unhonoured ...", ".. for their own voices were fair as the plash of fountains." and so on.

So it's safe to say Tolkien used "fair" many times to express "beautiful".

Thanks all for responding.

Not related, but I found a very funny translation error in the recent German translation by Wolfgang Krege. The original English goes:

“He is a liar, O truly tremendous one!”

and in all other translations I own, this is translated as such, which some honourific for the Great Goblin. However, it seems Krege has misread it (and no editor has caught this) thinking "one" refers back to "liar" instead of the Great Goblin and translates:

"Das ist ein Lügner, oh, und was für einer!"

meaning literally "That's a liar, oh, and what for one", and less literally "That's a liar, oh, and a good one at that!" or ".., and what a fine specimen!" or the like.


JAL

There's even more complication when we consider that Middle Earth is a conworld. The term "fair elves" may literally refer to coloration and not value in universe, but how can we be sure that the conflation of lightness and beauty was not a deliberate, if perhaps unconscious, choice by the author? After all, there is a worrying corelation between being coded Middle Eastern and fighting for Sauron in the Third Age. It is possible that the Fair Elves are both light and beautiful not because Tolkein was involuntarily trapped by the happenstance of English semantics, but because he embraced it,

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:28 amIt is possible that the Fair Elves are both light and beautiful not because Tolkein was involuntarily trapped by the happenstance of English semantics, but because he embraced it

Oh, definitely, there's a lot of racism in LotR with regards to the way the humans are described. And I don't think that elves are described as other than having a light complexion. But the question here is whether they are also blond haired, and I think, given what has been said before, that's very likely not the case per se.


JAL

the Latin translation of The Hobbit was approved by the Tolkein estate, right? If so, what does that text have for the passage in question?

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 1:57 am the Latin translation of The Hobbit was approved by the Tolkein estate, right? If so, what does that text have for the passage in question?

Oh, I didn't even know there was a Latin version, one more for the wish list 😄. Fortunately it's available online, and it uses "candida", which has a primary meaning of "white", but has a secondary meaning of "fair", "beautiful". So one more for the "beautiful" camp 😄.


JAL

If you're interested in knowing, the Swedish translation calls them the "light elves of Gondolin" (light as in light color).

Det hade dräpt hundratals vättar på sin tid, när Gondolins ljusa alver jagade dem bland kullarna eller utkämpade strider utanför deras murar.

Qwynegold wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 1:39 am If you're interested in knowing, the Swedish translation calls them the "light elves of Gondolin" (light as in light color).
Det hade dräpt hundratals vättar på sin tid, när Gondolins ljusa alver jagade dem bland kullarna eller utkämpade strider utanför deras murar.

Thanks! I don't have a Swedish version yet (I try to buy the books in the countries I visit, and haven't been to Sweden for a long time), so this is a welcome addition.


JAL

Come to think of it, how do your other Hobbit translations deal with the language of the books in general? The prose is deliberately very "old fashioned," in the sense that nobody was speaking like that in 1937, and that's part of the style (critics complained that Tolkien was replicating the style of the nineteenth century Romantics like Scott out of pure nostalgia). Do translations try to write in the style of nineteenth century Swedish Romanticists?

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:00 pmCome to think of it, how do your other Hobbit translations deal with the language of the books in general?

I'm translating into what could be called a literary style, trying to match the English style within the contraints of the Sajiwan vocabulary and grammar. A style like a Bible translation could have, but definitely not like an Anansi story would be written in.

EDIT: I think you mean the translations into non-conlangs, not my translation. For that see below.

The prose is deliberately very "old fashioned," in the sense that nobody was speaking like that in 1937, and that's part of the style (critics complained that Tolkien was replicating the style of the nineteenth century Romantics like Scott out of pure nostalgia). Do translations try to write in the style of nineteenth century Swedish Romanticists?

The Dutch translation is in very old-fashioned language, and hasn't been updated much, although I think it should. The Lord of the Rings is perhaps worse - I'm currently reading it to my 11yo, and I have to explain a lot of the old-fashioned words (though the Hobbit is definitely not without them either). I think in most languages there have been recent retranslations, at least the German version is pretty legible (my German is not that good).

EDIT: I can't really read any of the other languages, so I don't know.


JAL

To be fair, most 11-year olds in the English-speaking world would struggle with sentences like "The ensorceled ironbrand cleaved the blaggard's byrnie with an obstreporous din" or whatever. That's part of the charm. What do Dutch readers do with older Dutch novels? Does Sara Burgerhart get updated every generation?

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:50 amTo be fair, most 11-year olds in the English-speaking world would struggle with sentences like "The ensorceled ironbrand cleaved the blaggard's byrnie with an obstreporous din" or whatever. That's part of the charm.

Personally I find The Hobbit to be pretty legible, but I'll let native English speakers chime in.

What do Dutch readers do with older Dutch novels? Does Sara Burgerhart get updated every generation?

I don't think many people read those older novels. In general, the same as with, say, Wuthering Heights or Pride and Prejudice: you get used to the archaic language after a while. But Tolkien isn't really literature, and translated literature at that, so I don't see any problems with modernizing translations.


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:25 am I don't think many people read those older novels. In general, the same as with, say, Wuthering Heights or Pride and Prejudice: you get used to the archaic language after a while. But Tolkien isn't really literature, and translated literature at that, so I don't see any problems with modernizing translations.

Generally I'd agree, but Tolkien used some archaic terms for specific effect. I assume translations would struggle to convey the same effect, but it would be worthwhile to try, I think. Without some of the archaic terms, such as the use of leagues and fathoms, it just doesn't feel like the same world.

Vardelm wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:42 amWithout some of the archaic terms, such as the use of leagues and fathoms, it just doesn't feel like the same world.

It perhaps wouldn't feel to you, but leagues and fathoms aren't know outside the anglosphere, so a translation needs to come up with something anyway. In the Dutch version, "miles" and "feet" are translated, and sound already archaic enough, since we're on the metric system. In general, I don't think there's that much archaisms in The Hobbit.


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:47 am In the Dutch version, "miles" and "feet" are translated, and sound already archaic enough, since we're on the metric system. In general, I don't think there's that much archaisms in The Hobbit.

Fair point. They SHOULD be archaic here too for the same reason, but obviously are not.