Zompist Bboard Again

Some time ago I was proofreading a story for a friend and we ended up in a huge argument because, as it turned out, he was utterly convinced that they could be used as a casual obviative third person in English. This was in a scene with three male characters. Now, he did not have the linguistic vocabulary to say it that, but the usage and what little articulation he gave made it unmistakable this was what he was doing (i.e. attempting to dodge the joke "gay fanfiction problem").

Now, this does not work in English, and especially not if you have a third character in the scene already! However I'm curious if anyone has encountered something similar out there?

"Jack looked at Tom, the waiter. He sized them up in an instant."

Kind of wrong, but not entirely. I can see why someone might think that using "they" in this situation makes it more clear that the first pronoun "he" is more topical, and therefore more likely to be Jack than Tom. There are plenty of sneaky anaphoric phrases that imply high or low topicality.

"Jack is much older than Tom. Give him some credit." vs "Jack is much older than Tom. Give the man some credit." In the second case, it is much less clear to me whether "the man" refers back to the subject of the previous sentence or not.

EDIT: Also, the "gay fanfiction problem" is bullshit. Learn to craft a proper sentence with context. If I can write a novel where one of the main characters is non-binary posing as a woman, you can learn to manage your damn anaphors.

Somehow I suspect the "gay fanfiction problem" was never really suggested seriously.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:42 pm Somehow I suspect the "gay fanfiction problem" was never really suggested seriously.

Heh, fair enough. My issue with the "problem" is that it presents the ambiguity of pronouns as if it's some kind of inherent flaw. Pronouns are always underspecified, requiring the speaker to present information in context, in a way that allows good parsing. "He held his hand" is only ambiguous if you are an obstinant reader or a clueless writer.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:24 pm Heh, fair enough. My issue with the "problem" is that it presents the ambiguity of pronouns as if it's some kind of inherent flaw. Pronouns are always underspecified, requiring the speaker to present information in context, in a way that allows good parsing.

Nice opportunity to promote my pet idea that gender-based pronouns should be replaced by a system in which the first person, animal, or object in a sentence, paragraph, or short text would always be referred to by Pronoun No. 1, the second person, animal, or object in a sentence, paragraph, or short text would always be referred to by Pronoun No. 2, the third person, animal, or object in a sentence, paragraph, or short text would always be referred to by Pronoun No. 3, and so on.

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:35 pm

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:24 pm Heh, fair enough. My issue with the "problem" is that it presents the ambiguity of pronouns as if it's some kind of inherent flaw. Pronouns are always underspecified, requiring the speaker to present information in context, in a way that allows good parsing.

Nice opportunity to promote my pet idea that gender-based pronouns should be replaced by a system in which the first person, animal, or object in a sentence, paragraph, or short text would always be referred to by Pronoun No. 1, the second person, animal, or object in a sentence, paragraph, or short text would always be referred to by Pronoun No. 2, the third person, animal, or object in a sentence, paragraph, or short text would always be referred to by Pronoun No. 3, and so on.

This is, and please do not take offense, the most German thing I have ever heard. I love it.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Tue Jan 04, 2022 4:19 pm
This is, and please do not take offense, the most German thing I have ever heard. I love it.

Interestingly enough, I just discovered that zompist seems to have done a simpler version of it in Flaidish:

http://zompist.com/flaidish.htm#Fourth

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:35 pm Nice opportunity to promote my pet idea that gender-based pronouns should be replaced by a system in which the first person, animal, or object in a sentence, paragraph, or short text would always be referred to by Pronoun No. 1, the second person, animal, or object in a sentence, paragraph, or short text would always be referred to by Pronoun No. 2, the third person, animal, or object in a sentence, paragraph, or short text would always be referred to by Pronoun No. 3, and so on.

In programming, this is known as de Bruijn indexing.

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jan 04, 2022 4:28 pm Interestingly enough, I just discovered that zompist seems to have done a simpler version of it in Flaidish:

http://zompist.com/flaidish.htm#Fourth

Nah, I’m pretty sure that’s just a normal obviative pronoun.