Zompist Bboard Again

A group of geologists were doing a survey of the rivers in Somplaycia and noticed that some of the hydronyms just so happen to sound somewhat alike - help them figure out which are related and in what way:

Interesting challenge! The first thing I notice is that quite a words end in a formative [+palatal][+front+close] — in fact, nearly all of them do:

/gʀɒː-ci/
/hɔ-ⁿɟi/
/ʟ̠ʷɑ̃-c͡çɛ/
/m̥ɔ-d͡ʒi/
/ŋ͡moə-cːɨ/
/pʰœ-ʒe/
/ɟeː-ce/

The only exceptions are /ŋoj-c/ and /ŋəɫa-cʼ/, which seem to have a reduced form of it, and /əwa-ʔ/, which seems completely dissimilar until you realise that c→ʔ is a pretty reasonable sound change. Thus, I take the common formative *-ci to mean ‘river’.

We can also look at the prefixes. /m̥ɔ-/, /ŋ͡moə-/, /ŋoj-/ and /ŋəɫa-/ seem pretty close. /pʰœ-/, /gʀɒː-/, /hɔ-/, /ʟ̠ʷɑ̃-/ and /əwa-/ also show a resemblance to that group. /ɟeː-/ seems totally unrelated, though there might be a connection to /gʀɒː-/.

Therefore, I tentatively group the names as follows:


With /ɟeːce/ incertæ sedis.

I'm not sure about ŋəɫacʼ coming from *ŋəwac - I feel like I'd expect ɫ > w rather than the other way around. That puts some strain on the idea of vowel breaking from an initial *ɔ, since you've got a lateral appearing more or less out of nowhere. Perhaps the original form was *ŋ͡mɔmɔci, with the first branch dissimilating to *ŋ͡mɔɫɔci and the second showing haplology?

Ketsuban wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 1:43 am I'm not sure about ŋəɫacʼ coming from *ŋəwac - I feel like I'd expect ɫ > w rather than the other way around. That puts some strain on the idea of vowel breaking from an initial *ɔ, since you've got a lateral appearing more or less out of nowhere. Perhaps the original form was *ŋ͡mɔmɔci, with the first branch dissimilating to *ŋ͡mɔɫɔci and the second showing haplology?

Yeah, this sounds more reasonable than what I have.

The geologists rummaged their notes and maps and found some tributaries with names apparently belonging to the *ŋ͡mɔmɔci word family:

/ɒvæʔ/ is clearly related to /əwaʔ/. Same for /gwici/ and /ɡʀɒːci/, and /ᵐbøʒi/ and /pʰœʒe/. /ŋɔ̤a̯cɨ/ is an interesting case: it’s almost exactly like /ŋ͡moecːɨ/, except for the breathy voice, which seems to suggest some relation to /m̥ɔd͡ʒi/. /xmɑe̯ɟ/ also appears similar to /ŋ͡moecːɨ/ at first, but a relationship to *m̥ɔ̃ɟi seems more plausible. I suspect that /ŋɔ̤a̯cɨ/ and /xmɑe̯ɟ/ together form a first-level group, of uncertain affiliation — until we realise that the protoform for the nasal subfamily is not *mɔ̃ci but something more like *mɔ̃ɒci. /ʍatt͡ʃɛ/ is probably derived from *ʁʷɒ̃ci.

Thus, I update my diagram:

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 8:28 pm Thus, I update my diagram:

Nice tree graph. What does the dashed line mean?

WarpedWartWars wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:32 pm What does the dashed line mean?

It means there wasn’t enough space and I was too lazy to fit it in properly.

I feel like we now have a place for ɟeːce as a sister form to gwici, but I have no evidence for that beyond a gut impression.

Ketsuban wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:56 pm I feel like we now have a place for ɟeːce as a sister form to gwici, but I have no evidence for that beyond a gut impression.

I did mention this as a possibility earlier, but I can’t see any easy way to get there: *gʁʷɒ- to /ɟe-/ is tricky. If anything I now suspect a link to *ɣʷɑ̃c͡çi — which, now I look again should actually be *ɣʷɑ̃c͡çɛ — though that too seems a bit tricky.

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:05 pm

Ketsuban wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:56 pm I feel like we now have a place for ɟeːce as a sister form to gwici, but I have no evidence for that beyond a gut impression.

I did mention this as a possibility earlier, but I can’t see any easy way to get there: *gʁʷɒ- to /ɟe-/ is tricky. If anything I now suspect a link to *ɣʷɑ̃c͡çi — which, now I look again should actually be *ɣʷɑ̃c͡çɛ — though that too seems a bit tricky.

It could be, I think, that the ancestral form of the form currently reconstructed as */ci/ could be */ce~t(j)e~k(j)e/

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:49 pm It means there wasn’t enough space and I was too lazy to fit it in properly.

Yes, but why a dashed line instead of a normal one?

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:09 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:05 pm

Ketsuban wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:56 pm I feel like we now have a place for ɟeːce as a sister form to gwici, but I have no evidence for that beyond a gut impression.

I did mention this as a possibility earlier, but I can’t see any easy way to get there: *gʁʷɒ- to /ɟe-/ is tricky. If anything I now suspect a link to *ɣʷɑ̃c͡çi — which, now I look again should actually be *ɣʷɑ̃c͡çɛ — though that too seems a bit tricky.

It could be, I think, that the ancestral form of the form currently reconstructed as */ci/ could be */ce~t(j)e~k(j)e/

It seems unlikely, given that its most common reflex is /i/, and /c/ is unstable enough to turn into just about any palatal-ish consonant. But really it’s the /ɟe-/ part which is giving me trouble.

WarpedWartWars wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:10 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:49 pm It means there wasn’t enough space and I was too lazy to fit it in properly.

Yes, but why a dashed line instead of a normal one?

Good question.

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:07 am

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:09 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:05 pm

I did mention this as a possibility earlier, but I can’t see any easy way to get there: *gʁʷɒ- to /ɟe-/ is tricky. If anything I now suspect a link to *ɣʷɑ̃c͡çi — which, now I look again should actually be *ɣʷɑ̃c͡çɛ — though that too seems a bit tricky.

It could be, I think, that the ancestral form of the form currently reconstructed as */ci/ could be */ce~t(j)e~k(j)e/

It seems unlikely, given that its most common reflex is /i/, and /c/ is unstable enough to turn into just about any palatal-ish consonant. But really it’s the /ɟe-/ part which is giving me trouble.

I expect it would be one of the [gʀʷɒci] group (it isn't far off from [gʀɒːci], in fact); the exact route of [gʀʷ] > [ɟ] is unclear — the [ʀʷ] could delabialise, and then become [j] after stops, or simply be lost, with [g] > [ɟ] being the result of assimilation to the following [c], or some sort of Satemisation. [ɒ] > [ɒː] > [æː] (possibly undergoing i-mutation) > [eː] would probably account for the vowel (the loss of [ʀʷ] at this point could also simply allow [geː] > [ɟeː], a not-uncommon shift in itself), and [i] > [e], while not as common as the other way round, is far from impossible (especially if it's assimilated to the [eː] that precedes it).

Meanwhile our resident geologists have been hard at work on the other side of the mountain range. While filling in their maps, they have identified five more groups of tentatively related hydronyms, though they're not particularly sure what to do of the second one... they need some help.