Zompist Bboard Again

Jonlang proposed this on Ephemera:

Jonlang wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 3:32 am So, someone posts a sentence in their conlang. They give some info on what some of it means, e.g. articles, particles, suffixes, etc. They can be as helpful (or unhelpful) as they like. Everybody else then tries to decipher the sentence and translate it into English. Obviously, the OP isn't allowed to lie about anything that is guessed / figured out correctly. The more questions asked/guesses made the easier it becomes until someone cracks it, then someone else posts a sentence and we go again. It could become messy but it could also be fun and allows people to share short sentences in their conlangs.

I'll start it off:
Tautisca
Waicé puccarun waicunus sam capraf pecunus.
It's an IE a-posteriori conlang, so if you think you recognise some words and grammar, it's probably true.

hwhatting wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 5:00 am Tautisca
Waicé puccarun waicunus sam capraf pecunus.
It's an IE a-posteriori conlang, so if you think you recognise some words and grammar, it's probably true.

I’ll start by guessing ‘pig’ (in the nominative?) for pecunus. waicunus feels familiar too, but I can’t quite think of an etymology.

(Also, we could do with a catchier name for this game. ‘Conlang decipherment’, maybe?)

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 5:55 am I’ll start by guessing ‘pig’ (in the nominative?) for pecunus. waicunus feels familiar too, but I can’t quite think of an etymology.

pecunus is a nominative, but it doesn't mean "pig". Hint: it's an adjective.

Waicé puccarun waicunus sam capraf pecunus.

• The element wai, I assume something like [wai~waj], might be connected with Proto-Indo-European *wey "we"; I suspect ce (probably [ke~ce~tse~s̪e~(t)ɕe~(t)ʃe]) is connected with *kwe;
• The element puccarun is a bit more elusive, and I'm not sure what I make of it; it seems to either be a neuter noun, or possibly a masculine accusative;
• The element waicunus is probably an inflection of wai, possibly our, though this would imply that the *m~*n sections of the paradigm had been levelled out of existence;
• sam is possibly a demonstrative, a reflex of *só, probably in the feminine, and maybe an acccusative, as it seems elsewhere *ó > u occurs; if elsewhere final *m > n occurs, it may be that final m is preserved in monosyllabls.
• The element capraf is likely the ablative form of something, possibly a word meaning "goat";
• I suspect pecunus to be connected with Latin pecu;

The sentence is probably saying something about domestic goats, but I'm not catching much more.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 8:03 am

• The element wai, I assume something like [wai~waj], might be connected with Proto-Indo-European *wey "we"; I suspect ce (probably [ke~ce~tse~s̪e~(t)ɕe~(t)ʃe]) is connected with *kwe;

You're on the wrong path here. Hint: waicé is a case form of a noun

[*]The element puccarun is a bit more elusive, and I'm not sure what I make of it; it seems to either be a neuter noun, or possibly a masculine accusative;

It's a case form of a noun, but neither is it neuter nor is it in the accusative.

[*]The element waicunus is probably an inflection of wai, possibly our, though this would imply that the *m~*n sections of the paradigm had been levelled out of existence;

It is also a noun, and you're correct that it is related to the first word - it's a noun derived from the first noun.

[*]sam is possibly a demonstrative, a reflex of *só, probably in the feminine, and maybe an acccusative, as it seems elsewhere *ó > u occurs; if elsewhere final *m > n occurs, it may be that final m is preserved in monosyllabls.

It's not a demonstrative. PIE final /*m/ has become /n/ under all conditions in Tautisca.

[*]The element capraf is likely the ablative form of something, possibly a word meaning "goat";

Yes, capra means "goat", and capraf is the instrumental singular.

[*]I suspect pecunus to be connected with Latin pecu;[/list]

Also correct. It's an adjective based on PIE *pek'u "cattle", and it means "rich, wealthy".

The sentence is probably saying something about domestic goats, but I'm not catching much more.

Yes, goats are involved. Maybe my hints help you to get closer?

hwhatting wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 8:20 am You're on the wrong path here. Hint: waicé is a case form of a noun

On the wrong path, hmm? Is there a possible connection to *weyk, meaning "divide, separate, make sacred" (whence probably German weih-), also sometimes related to magic, as English reflexes witch, witchcraft, or (possibly) badness, as English wicked? I suspect it might mean something like "divide up, separate" or possibly "shelter". It could also be connected with *weyḱ-; not knowing whether "c" represents a velar or some sort of palatal or affricate, makes it difficult to guess.

puccarun

It's a case form of a noun, but neither is it neuter nor is it in the accusative.

I probably ought to come back to this one and see if context will offer me a clue.

waicunus

It is also a noun, and you're correct that it is related to the first word - it's a noun derived from the first noun.

The derivational morpheme might be from PIE *nós, probably implying that it refers to a condition or state of the first word.

It's not a demonstrative. PIE final /*m/ has become /n/ under all conditions in Tautisca.

Is it possibly an inflection of a word derived from *swé?

The sentence is probably saying something about domestic goats, but I'm not catching much more.

Yes, goats are involved. Maybe my hints help you to get closer?

The last three words carry presumably the sense of being "wealthy (in) goats", which I assume are the internal cultural equivalent of having many head of cattle or other such valuable possessions. The overall idea I get is that "Those who set themselves apart are able to do so because they are made wealthy by owning many goats".

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 8:59 am "shelter"

That's from the correct semantic field.

not knowing whether "c" represents a velar or some sort of palatal or affricate, makes it difficult to guess.

"c" is just /k/; the Tautínai got the alphabet from the Romans and the letter values are close to their classical Latin values.

waicunus

It is also a noun, and you're correct that it is related to the first word - it's a noun derived from the first noun.

The derivational morpheme might be from PIE *nós, probably implying that it refers to a condition or state of the first word.

I don't know whether you meant that, but it's the suffix PIE *-no-, which can form both adjectives and nouns.
Further hint: it denotes a person having a relation with the first noun.

It's not a demonstrative. PIE final /*m/ has become /n/ under all conditions in Tautisca.

Is it possibly an inflection of a word derived from *swé?

It's a frozen inflection of a word (not *swé) that now serves as an adverb and a preposition.

The last three words carry presumably the sense of being "wealthy (in) goats", which I assume are the internal cultural equivalent of having many head of cattle or other such valuable possessions. The overall idea I get is that "Those who set themselves apart are able to do so because they are made wealthy by owning many goats".

Yes, it's about wealth through goats in a sense, but the rest isn't correct yet. Hint: pecunus is the predicate here.

Original: Waicé puccarun waicunus sam capraf pecunus.

waicé Pron.: /waj'keː/ (?) ablative of waicos (n. "enclosure") (?)
puccarun Pron.: /'puk.ka.run/ (?) this may be connected with *pekw~pokw meaning "cook"; the form also reminds me of some Italic past-tenses, so my guess is this might be "cooked" (third-person plural)
waicunus Pron.: /waj'ku.nus/ (?) this might mean "herd", specifically in the sense of a domesticated herd (?); it may also be a genitive or ablative form, too;
sam : Pron.: /sam/ (?) "from among" (?)
capraf : instrumental, "goat"
pecunus: "wealthy"

Perhaps something like, "(They) cooked (a meal) from among the goats with which they were wealthy" (?)

I believe waicé is cognate to oikos and means either 'house' or 'village'.
waicunus would be either a villager or a member of the household.

With Rounin and Ares coming probably as close as one can get, and with puccarun hard to guess, I'll give the solution:

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 4:53 pm Original: Waicé puccarun waicunus sam capraf pecunus.

waicé Pron.: /waj'keː/ (?) ablative of waicos (n. "enclosure") (?)
waicunus Pron.: /waj'ku.nus/ (?) this might mean "herd", specifically in the sense of a domesticated herd (?); it may also be a genitive or ablative form, too;

Ares Land wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 2:31 am I believe waicé is cognate to oikos and means either 'house' or 'village'.
waicunus would be either a villager or a member of the household.

Ares has got it right. waicus means "village", and waicé is the locative singular. waicunus indeed means "villager, peasant, farmer".

puccarun Pron.: /'puk.ka.run/ (?) this may be connected with *pekw~pokw meaning "cook"; the form also reminds me of some Italic past-tenses, so my guess is this might be "cooked" (third-person plural)

You missed my hint where I said that this is another noun, neither in the accusative nor a neuter noun. IE won't help you here (sorry!), pucca means "chicken" and is presumably of onomatopoeic origin; puccarun is the genitive plural (from PIE *-eh2-som, like Greek or Latin). You got the pronunciation right, BTW (['puk:arun])

sam : Pron.: /sam/ (?) "from among" (?)

Close. sam is originally a locative of the numeral *sem- "one" (*sem-i; short final vowels underwent apocope in the development of Tautisca from PIE) and means "together" and, as a preposition, "with".

The whole sentence means "In a village of chickens (= where everybody only has chickens), the villager with a goat is rich". It's the Tautisca equivalent to "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed is king."

How do we decide who goes next?

Do we have any rules as to who goes next? If not, I’ll continue with this sentence:

Mát

market

sínɵ,

go-‘nɵ’,

mud

banana

ta

CL.edible

bohb

take-‘p’

tǎm

come-‘p’

did

place-‘d’

pobi,

try-‘bi’,

kleʔ

bat

hápe

eat-‘pe’

nide

be-‘de’

e

=3

sém

see

a

=1/2

dá.

INF(erence)

I’ve given a near-full gloss — the tricky parts in this case are the morphosyntax, not the lexemes. (Besides, trying to guess the meaning of every word in an a priori language gets boring quickly.) I’m not saying anything about the meaning of the affixes, but I will give some example sentences for you to work from (using only the same words as above, plus nɵ ‘declarative marker’):

Mud hánɵ ni a nɵ. ‘We were there to eat bananas’.
Tánɵ hád sém a nɵ. ‘Before coming, we ate and saw.’
Síbi e, tâm síde ni a nɵ. ‘Though they left, having come we did not go.’
Támbe há a nɵ. ‘Them having come, we ate.’

(Mind the tone sandhi!)

Hello? Anyone interested in having a go at this?

My brain doesn't feel functional for this right now.

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 5:33 pm Hello? Anyone interested in having a go at this?

Too much work at the moment. Maybe I'll have time to sit and think later this week

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 2:23 pm Do we have any rules as to who goes next?

Maybe whoever solves the puzzle should?

If not, I’ll continue with this sentence:

Mát

market

sínɵ,

go-‘nɵ’,

mud

banana

ta

CL.edible

bohb

take-‘p’

tǎm

come-‘p’

did

place-‘d’

pobi,

try-‘bi’,

kleʔ

bat

hápe

eat-‘pe’

nide

be-‘de’

e

=3

sém

see

a

=1/2

dá.

INF(erence)

I have some idea that it means something to the effect of, "It seems the bat went to the market to take and eat a banana."

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 7:32 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 2:23 pm Do we have any rules as to who goes next?

Maybe whoever solves the puzzle should?

Perhaps, but people only have so many conlangs to decipher.

If not, I’ll continue with this sentence:

Mát

market

sínɵ,

go-‘nɵ’,

mud

banana

ta

CL.edible

bohb

take-‘p’

tǎm

come-‘p’

did

place-‘d’

pobi,

try-‘bi’,

kleʔ

bat

hápe

eat-‘pe’

nide

be-‘de’

e

=3

sém

see

a

=1/2

dá.

INF(erence)

I have some idea that it means something to the effect of, "It seems the bat went to the market to take and eat a banana."

Not close at all, but thanks for at least trying nevertheless.

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 2:23 pm Do we have any rules as to who goes next? If not, I’ll continue with this sentence:

Mát

market

sínɵ,

go-‘nɵ’,

mud

banana

ta

CL.edible

bohb

take-‘p’

tǎm

come-‘p’

did

place-‘d’

pobi,

try-‘bi’,

kleʔ

bat

hápe

eat-‘pe’

nide

be-‘de’

e

=3

sém

see

a

=1/2

dá.

INF(erence)

Sorry, I was out of town this week...

I'm really, really not sure about this, but I'll try:

Going to the market, we saw, or so it seems, a bat try and take a banana to eat it.

I think this game probably works better with a posteriori languages, since you can figure out what the cognates are (sometimes).

Ares Land wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:23 am I'm really, really not sure about this, but I'll try:

Going to the market, we saw, or so it seems, a bat try and take a banana to eat it.

A bit closer, though still mostly incorrect. (It helps that you were the only one to try my exercises on Hlʉ̂, I think.)

_______


I do recommend that people try to figure out the semantics of the suffixes first, using the translated sentences, and only then go on to translate the more intricate challenge sentence.