Zompist Bboard Again

In the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, the bulk of Italian immigration to the United States came from southern regions such as Sicily, Campania, and Calabria. As a result, when Americans think of Italian food, they most often imagine pasta, olive oil, and tomatoes. Working class staples like polenta are to be found in trendy modern restaurants, not your Noni's hand-written cookbook. But what would Americanized Italian food look like if the bulk of Italian immigration to the US had been from places like Lombardy or Piedmont?

First of all, we cannot assume that American Italian food would bear any resemblance to the food eaten today in Milan or Venice. Italian food culture evolves like any other. Spaghetti and meatballs, the most iconic American Italian dish, was not invented by clueless non-Italians, but by Italian-Americans themselves, augmenting traditional recipes. So we must assume that Italian-Americans in our alternate history scenario will augment their own recipes as well. This includes making substitutions, adopting ingredients and techniques from other groups, and assimilating to mainstream culinary tastes.

In no particular order, here are the biggest changes I foresee happening to traditional Northern Italian food culture. Butter (and to a small extent clarified butter) becomes the main fat, compared to the mix of butter and olive oil used in most parts of northern Italy. The line between German and Italian cuisine blurs, as both culture rub shoulders in American cities making breaded cutlets and potato dumplings. Risotto, polenta, and stuffed pasta are the standard carbohydrates for most meals, while orecchiette in tomato sauce is the hot new thing in high-class Italian dining. Lastly, the northern Italian penchant for meaty, creamy foods reaches absurd proportions, with beef and fontina added to nearly everything. Ciabatta was invented in northern Italy, but long after the main thrust of immigration to North America, so it is not part of our hypothetical Italian-American cuisine.

I have gone through a few classic northern Italian dishes, and applied what I imagine would be the historical pressures that would shape their modern form.

Steak and Polenta
This is the dish people think of when they think of Italian food. Even a small town in deepest, darkest Nebraska will have at least one restaurant that serves steak and polenta. The steak was originally tripe, liver, and onions cooked in clarified butter with garlic, black pepper, and salt, but modern recipes use thin slices of steak and cut back on the seasonings. Some restaurants ask you if you want fontina or mozzarella cheese melted on your polenta, because of course that’s an option.

Agnolotti
Pumpkin has long since disappeared as a popular stuffing for these small stuffed pastas. Instead, they are stuffed to bursting with ground beef, and served with melted butter. The hand tool used to make agnolotti is a common household item, appearing in the kitchens of Italians and non-Italians alike. Making agnolotti together and getting covered in flour is a cliche date scene in movies.

Pizzoccheri
This one is a little weird. In Italy, pizzoccheri is widely seen as a joke food: a thin excuse to shove as many kilograms of carbs and cheese into your face as science will allow, while using a small garnish of vegetables to stave off God’s wrath. Perfect for America, right? Of course, Italian-Americans eschew the buckwheat noodles for regular ones in various shapes, and add (you guessed it!) meat. The result is layers of noodles and soft cheeses somewhat reminiscent of lasagne.

Risotto
You know where this is going. Another staple of Italian cooking that has crossed over into the mainstream, this version of risotto is made from rice cooked in beef broth with some perfunctory attempt at vegetables like peas, mushrooms, or carrots. As an entree, it will usually have pan-fried steak and onions on top, and once again you may have the option to get it with a thick layer of melted cheese.

Cotoletto e Canederli
The above-mentioned cutlet and potatoes. Traditionally veal, but usually chicken in recent years, the cutlet is tenderized, breaded, and fried in clarified butter. The dumplings were originally stuck together with asiago, but today some cooks will shamelessly use cheddar, or whatever cheese is available. A lemon wedge and radicchio salad that no one eats complete the dish in restaurants, but home cooks usually skip the garnish (and sometimes the tenderizing).

Cassoeula
This pork stew has evolved into a sort of pot roast, slow cooked in broth, spices, and hearty vegetables. Because it is associated with traditional home cooking and never took off in restaurants, it has slowly declined in popularity. This in turn has lead to a renaissance, with trendy Protestant home cooks making “casserola” with quinoa and chard. Italian-Americans lament the betrayal of "real cassoeula," by which they mean a food unrecognizable to actual Italians.

Bagna Cauda
In this alternate history, it is the Italians who introduce America to the idea of fondue. The original bagna cauda was made mostly of garlic and anchovies, but this quickly turned into a cheesy bechamel similar to Kraft Mac N Cheese, with some garlic added back in for the adventurous. Skewers of cooked meat and vegetables are then dipped in the hot cheese. Bagna cauda remains the chief “exhibition” food for American Italian restaurants, the way fajitas are for American Mexican restaurants.

So what do you think of my experiment? Do you think this is a plausible result? Do any of these foods sound like they would become American staples? Have I wildly missed the mark of what early immigrants to America would bring with them? Let me know what you think.

Have you tried cooking any of it?

Alternate Alternate history idea, because all this food sounds similar to German or English cuisine Americans never adopt it like they never adopted German cuisine. Thanks to this French people bemoan about how American stuffed crossiant is untraditional, brioche burgers take off in the 1970's and Tortilla refers to seasoned sliced and baked potatoes held together by cheese (cheddar will do for home cooks but more traditional varieties and also a lot of fast food restaurants will use some spanish cheese i'm not going to find the name off) with various toppings after the Spanish tortilla is adapted into a popular fast food item by the Americans popular varieties of which include The Phillipino (similar to the Hawaiian but with Serrano (Jamon) instead of regular ham, it btw was originally called The Spanish but over time people learned it obviously couldn't be from Spain), Meatlovers, Vegetarian (usually includes a variety of vegetables as well as Queso de Burgos), Cebolla (with tomato and onion), Traditional (with just onion and Serrano (Jamon)) and Breakfast (with bacon, eggs and tomato) .

thethief3 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 3:33 am Americans never adopt it like they never adopted German cuisine

You obviously haven't been to Wisconsin. Bratwurst is very much traditional here (with the main Americanizations being that we eat them on buns, unlike the Germans, and the invention of things like beer brats and cheddar brats), and at a truly traditional Friday night fish fry here you have potato pancakes with applesauce as opposed to fries.

I also think it isn't very nice to invalidate the initial posting (though maybe that wasn't the intention). Some of the food does sound good, which is why I asked if the original poster had cooked any (and I'm still curious to know).

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:38 pmwhich is why I asked if the original poster had cooked any (and I'm still curious to know).

Aside from the one that's just Wienerschnitzel mit Knoedeln, no. But I have definitely thought about making a super-meaty risotto in my darker moments.

I love this. Knowing nothing about Italian food, even Italian-American food, I can't really say anything more. Just... yes. Thank you!

(-- another alt-cuisine, conlang-recipe enthusiast)

Further Commentaries about the "North Italians don't season their food" Alt Alt History.

American foreign cuisine is divided into 4 main regions.

Northeast Coast
This is where the bulk of Italian immigration ended up historically so presumably it would be the centre of Italian Food. Unfortunately due to the lack of spiciness no one adopts it except for the distinctly american Polenta with Cheese (called New York Nada elsewhere especially in the west). People instead adopt French cuisine due to it's prestige and quickly bastardise it so the most popular fast food chains serve Ham and Cheese Brioche Burgers as well as Beef and for Catholics on sundays Fish (Chicken Burgers or as there known in America Chicken Sandwiches are unheard off) all of which can be served most traditionally with Tomato as Provencal Style through other ingredients become availible as chains modernise. These restaurants also serve crossaint sandwiches for breakfast and Macarons, Eclairs and Crepes for dessert. Further bastardisation has resulted in the "Quiche" being a simple tart which serves as an alternate menu item at these places as well as the Rattatouille for vegetarians and Catholics. Other French items not served at fast food chains include Bisques and other French Soups such as Tourin, Boulliabaise and French Onion as well as "Norman Specialty" which is Seafood and Apple Butter Sauce (Perhaps the Americans heard Normandy is most notable for it's Seafood and Apples and decided to combine the two, i have never heard of a Seafood + Apple Sauce recipe so i presume actual French think it's disgusting). Also from here is the above mentioned American Tortilla (sometimes known as the Espanyola) which develops in the 1950's in New York and is exported all over the country beginning in the 1970's through an alternate Hawaiian variant with different toppings is seen and beginning in the 2010's California develops its own variants spearheaded by chains such as The Eggless Omelette. Also seen here in many street food stalls is Salmon and eventually other types of Blinis from Russia and the Jewish people.

Midwest
This is the most German region so it has the bulk of German cuisine. Foods like Hot Dogs, Hamburgers and Schnitzels become Americanised but thanks to them never becoming popular outside of the Midwest (a.k.a "Flyover States") people still associate even Hamburgers with Germany. Eventually native Midwestern chains variants of popular East Coast fast food develop through with little German influence.

West and Southwest
More influenced by Mexican cuisine but specifically Northern Mexican so think Dried Beef, Crema Con Queso and Wheat Tortiyas (It's spelt with a y to reflect the pronounciation as Tortilla is pronounced with an l as the term adopted before yeismo spread through most of Spain). As such Tex Mex is chiefly associated with California (appropriately renamed California Mexican). Also popular is Salmon Nada a neo indigenous revival food which consists of Polenta (known as Nada across most of America from the Navajo word for corn) is combined with Seasoned Salmon topped with various sauces made of either berries (mostly imitating northern pacific coast cuisine) or spicy tomato salsa and/or guacamole (with more mexican influence) becomes popular around the 1970's and attempts (note this is not a traditional native food as it combines Pacific Coast Salmon with Agricultural Maize which never reached the coast before european contact). Wheat Taco Fast Food chains are the third most popular type of fast food chain in America after Brioche Burger and American Tortilla and popular chains (particularly those with a more authentic reputation) can be found outside of America in places such as Europe and Australia. Also due to Calis loyalty to their specific tacos Brioche Burger Mcdonalds is actually from Boston (did you know Mcdonalds is from California?).

The South
Heart of Anglo American cuisine and soul food just like the real world south. Most foreign cuisine here is imported after already being Americanised tho hipsters and immigrants start Carribean restaurants in here beginning in the 2000's. Also the locus of the Avocado Toast Trend as well as for some reason Thai Food. Also seen is the Southern Polenta equivalent Grits. Note Texas exists as an intermediary between The South proper and the West.

Other things of note include the generic term for Mafia in English being Bratva afte the Russian word since they make the bulk of American Gangsters.

thethief3 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 3:33 amAlternate Alternate history idea, because all this food sounds similar to German or English cuisine Americans never adopt it like they never adopted German cuisine.

It's not just Wisconsin (or other areas of heavy German immigration); German dishes like schnitzel and spätzel used to be common everywhere. What happened is that a lot of it fell out of favour during the lighter-eating 70s and then other trendier cuisines became popular. I still cook using a mid-century copy of Joy of Cooking and it has plenty of German recipes in it. The same people I know who wouldn't cook Sauerbraten wouldn't make pot roast either for the most part.

Yeah, America really had a food revolution in the late 20th century. White meat chicken and ground beef, pasta and sandwiches, frozen veggies. The advantage a lot of "modern" home cooking has over oxtail soup and hasenpfeffer is convenience. And things like Nixon-era food subsidies, general distaste for the bad old days of offal and lard, and the increase in workplace participation for women (while still having to cook dinner). This change affected casseroles just as much as it affected goulash.