Zompist Bboard Again

Cross-linguistically, what, if anything is a smooth syllable?

I have recently come across it being used as an alternative to the Thai-derived terminology live/dead in the dichotomy smooth/checked, but I'm bothered that 'smooth' might also be used to mean with 'modal voice'. Would a syllable ending in a glottal stop but phonologically 'live' rather than 'dead' be universally called 'smooth'? I'm also not sure whether a syllable with a glottalised or breathy vowel can be classed as 'smooth'.

Richard W wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:29 am Cross-linguistically, what, if anything is a smooth syllable?

I have recently come across it being used as an alternative to the Thai-derived terminology live/dead in the dichotomy smooth/checked, but I'm bothered that 'smooth' might also be used to mean with 'modal voice'. Would a syllable ending in a glottal stop but phonologically 'live' rather than 'dead' be universally called 'smooth'? I'm also not sure whether a syllable with a glottalised or breathy vowel can be classed as 'smooth'.

I’ve never heard of this terminology before. Could you give a source?

On the other hand, I do know that a ‘checked’ syllable is one ending with a stop (in SE Asian linguistics, especially Sinitic), so perhaps ‘smooth’ refers to a syllable not ending in a stop.

(Oh, and there’s a typo in the title.)

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:37 am
I’ve never heard of this terminology before. Could you give a source?

On the other hand, I do know that a ‘checked’ syllable is one ending with a stop (in SE Asian linguistics, especially Sinitic), so perhaps ‘smooth’ refers to a syllable not ending in a stop.

(Oh, and there’s a typo in the title.)

That's how I saw it used in T. Temsunungsang's 2009 disseration (Aspects of the prosodic phonology of Ao: An inter-dialectal study).

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:37 am

Richard W wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:29 am I have recently come across it being used as an alternative to the Thai-derived terminology live/dead in the dichotomy smooth/checked,...

On the other hand, I do know that a ‘checked’ syllable is one ending with a stop (in SE Asian linguistics, especially Sinitic), so perhaps ‘smooth’ refers to a syllable not ending in a stop.

Yes, that's roughly it, though there are subtle complications such as Thai [tɔʔ˥] โต็ะ 'table' being a checked syllable while Lao [kuajʔ˦˥˨] ກ້ວຍ 'banana' is a 'smooth syllable'. The problem with the latter is that the tone is realised with creaky voice or a final glottal stop.

Richard W wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 10:47 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:37 am

Richard W wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:29 am I have recently come across it being used as an alternative to the Thai-derived terminology live/dead in the dichotomy smooth/checked,...

On the other hand, I do know that a ‘checked’ syllable is one ending with a stop (in SE Asian linguistics, especially Sinitic), so perhaps ‘smooth’ refers to a syllable not ending in a stop.

Yes, that's roughly it, though there are subtle complications such as Thai [tɔʔ˥] โต็ะ 'table' being a checked syllable while Lao [kuajʔ˦˥˨] ກ້ວຍ 'banana' is a 'smooth syllable'. The problem with the latter is that the tone is realised with creaky voice or a final glottal stop.

I would have thought both of these were checked syllables based on ending in glottal stops - how is Lao [kuajʔ˦˥˨] ກ້ວຍ not a checked syllable?

Is it because it contains more than a short vowel before the glottal stop?

Creyeditor wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 11:44 am Is it because it contains more than a short vowel before the glottal stop?

That's pretty close, but the answer is dialect-dependent. Creyeditor's answer just about works for Lao. There are Tai dialects (the one of T'ien-pao, as it was written, is one example) where coda /k/ has become a glottal stop, but may still have long vowels before it. In the example I gave, taken from Chapter 3 Endnote 2 of Varisa Osatananda's successful 1997 University of Hawaii Ph.D. thesis "Tone in Vientiane Lao" (on a page hidden behind a paywall, alas), has /j/ as the coda consonant.

The snarky answer is that the glottal stop is non-phonemic, being part of the tone. It seems to be a long standing state of affairs - Pittayaporn reconstructs Proto-Tai tone B as creaky and Proto-Tai tone C as 'glottally constricted' and Wikipedia gives the corresponding Middle Chines tones C (去 departing) and B (上 Rising) as ending in /x/ and /h/ respectively. Other sources give the original final consonants as /s/ and /ʔ/. The matching of tone correspondences in well-diffused words has been credibly explained as due to their spreading with these final consonants attached, which then changed to tones in the various languages.

Now, although many modern Tai dialects do have /ʔ/ as a coda consonant, some of them seem still to only have /p, t, k/ as stop coda consonants. Contrariwise, Thai seems to be developing clusters. (I blame the teaching of English.) In one Thai soap, Boy for Rent (ผู้ชายให้เช่า), one characters name is Badz, which I found most bizarre. I first wondered if the soap was an adaptation of something Korean, but it seems far too Thai.

The one slightly iffy thing about Creyeditor's solution is that 'short vowel' has to include short diphthongs in checked syllables like Lao /tu͝aʔ˧˥/ ຕົວະ 'to deceive'. The pitch contour is completely different to that in words where the glottal stop is part of the tone.

Richard W wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 5:27 pmWikipedia gives the corresponding Middle Chines tones C (去 departing) and B (上 Rising) as ending in /x/ and /h/ respectively. Other sources give the original final consonants as /s/ and /ʔ/

Wait- where does it do that /x h/ thing? Baxter's Middle Chinese notation uses -X for tone B/上 and -H for tone C/去, but that's just a convenient notation.

Kuchigakatai wrote: ↑Sun Apr 17, 2022 3:22 pm

Richard W wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 5:27 pmWikipedia gives the corresponding Middle Chines tones C (去 departing) and B (上 Rising) as ending in /x/ and /h/ respectively. Other sources give the original final consonants as /s/ and /ʔ/

Wait- where does it do that /x h/ thing? Baxter's Middle Chinese notation uses -X for tone B/上 and -H for tone C/去, but that's just a convenient notation.

That was my thought too - it's just notation, not actual /x h/.

Sorry, I transposed 'x' and 'h'. I'm beginning to find swapping B and C between Kadai and Sinitic confusing. I got the information from the tone section of the Wikipedia Proto-Tai tone section, and there's a lot there that's almost right. It treats 'x' and 'h' on the same footing as 'p', 't' and 'k'. My current gripe is that they push the tone-splitting too far back, and I think English Wiktionary has just pushed the tone and length splitting back into Proto-SW Tai using Gedney's four phonation division, and I'm not sure that that totally works.

Going back to the original question, does no-one have any problem with 'smooth syllables' as a phonetically motivated phonological concept?