Zompist Bboard Again

I was re-reading the Dhekhnami grammar with the new map and I remembered that I had never asked about this before.

The verbal inflection section says that "the Munkhâshi dual forms have been lost" but isn't it actually the case that they have replaced the old Munkhâshi plural forms?

In Munkhâshi the plural verb V suffix had the opposite backness to the root V, but in Dhekhnami it's the same backness. Or is this an analogical shift of some kind?

Hmm, I didn't notice that before, but I think you're right.

It has occurred to me that Dhekhnami-style ranking could be introduced into German... in many cases simply by using High German for the higher rank and Low German for the lower. Just an amusing note.

Then there's how "thou" disappeared in English because it came to be seen as low-rank. (Upside: That means we could translate dzide as "thou" at least.)

BGMan wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 8:47 pm It has occurred to me that Dhekhnami-style ranking could be introduced into German... in many cases simply by using High German for the higher rank and Low German for the lower. Just an amusing note.

Then there's how "thou" disappeared in English because it came to be seen as low-rank. (Upside: That means we could translate dzide as "thou" at least.)

Problem is, nowadays, paradoxically, people perceive thou as fancier.

vegfarandi wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 8:16 am

BGMan wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 8:47 pm It has occurred to me that Dhekhnami-style ranking could be introduced into German... in many cases simply by using High German for the higher rank and Low German for the lower. Just an amusing note.

Then there's how "thou" disappeared in English because it came to be seen as low-rank. (Upside: That means we could translate dzide as "thou" at least.)

Problem is, nowadays, paradoxically, people perceive thou as fancier.

Such things sometimes change. Consider the recent usage of n----- in hip-hop culture.

Umh, you should REALLY have used the term "the N-word"m or something like that.

Oh, I apologize. I never wanted to imply that the usage of this word by some rappers constitutes a license to use it. Those rappers should ask themselves what the bleep they are doing.

Censored... sorry to have to do it, and I understand that you're German and maybe not accustomed to the etiquette, but it's something you really really want to avoid.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 3:40 pm Those rappers should ask themselves what the bleep they are doing.

That's part of the complex etiquette of these things - if you're part of the group the slur is used against, you can adopt it / make it your own and use it for and among your group; that doesn't license outsiders to use it.

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 7:25 pm Censored... sorry to have to do it, and I understand that you're German and maybe not accustomed to the etiquette, but it's something you really really want to avoid.

Indeed - I was aware that it is a Word That Must Not Be Used in the US, but I wasn't fully aware just how drastic it is there.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:15 am

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 7:25 pm Censored... sorry to have to do it, and I understand that you're German and maybe not accustomed to the etiquette, but it's something you really really want to avoid.

Indeed - I was aware that it is a Word That Must Not Be Used in the US, but I wasn't fully aware just how drastic it is there.

For many folks, there's also an important distinction between "n---er" and "n---a". One has been fully reclaimed whereas the other is still widely regarded as only a slur.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 11:23 am

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:15 am

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 7:25 pm Censored... sorry to have to do it, and I understand that you're German and maybe not accustomed to the etiquette, but it's something you really really want to avoid.

Indeed - I was aware that it is a Word That Must Not Be Used in the US, but I wasn't fully aware just how drastic it is there.

For many folks, there's also an important distinction between "n---er" and "n---a". One has been fully reclaimed whereas the other is still widely regarded as only a slur.

I actually never realised this — they’re homophones for me.

it's not really about the pronunciation, that's just an argument made by standup comics. it's about who's saying it and why

I don't think the sociology around a taboo word is entirely analogous to what's happened to thou. Thou was the informal pronoun, it got overtaken by the you. Eventually it became something people only associated with Shakespeare and period pieces and the like, and assumed because of the often aristocratic context of those stories, that thou was fancier. And now thou is mostly a joke to make you sound old-timey and aristocratic. A closer analogy is whomst, which is an internet joke, created out of conflating whom (already sort of a joke) and the extinct second person ending -st or perhaps the -st in whilst.

Interesting sidenote about thou: one of the last vestiges of thou in the nineteenth century was when communicating directly to God. Not just in set phrases like "thine is the kingdom...", but in impromptu prayers as well. This probably started off as a way to speak intimately to God, but now reads as a kind of honorific.

Also, language textbooks kept thou well into the twentieth century, because it was a handy way to transcribe the T/V distinction in European languages, even though readers would no longer be able to map this distinction onto their own pronouns.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 6:59 pm Interesting sidenote about thou: one of the last vestiges of thou in the nineteenth century was when communicating directly to God. Not just in set phrases like "thine is the kingdom...", but in impromptu prayers as well. This probably started off as a way to speak intimately to God, but now reads as a kind of honorific.

Right... so far as I know, this was common in Europe-- even if your language had a polite 'you', you used the T form with God. I don't think it was a mark of intimacy, it was a survival of ancient usage, back to the Vulgate.

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:49 pm Right... so far as I know, this was common in Europe-- even if your language had a polite 'you', you used the T form with God. I don't think it was a mark of intimacy, it was a survival of ancient usage, back to the Vulgate.

Interesting. So this practice started when tu was pretty neutral in terms of politeness, and stood still while the T/V distinction developed around it. If that's true, I would guess that a lot of people would probably come up with some folk etymology for why you speak to God as thou. How did/do European languages rationalize exempting the Creator from the usual indicators of respect and politeness?

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:49 pm

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 6:59 pm Interesting sidenote about thou: one of the last vestiges of thou in the nineteenth century was when communicating directly to God. Not just in set phrases like "thine is the kingdom...", but in impromptu prayers as well. This probably started off as a way to speak intimately to God, but now reads as a kind of honorific.

Right... so far as I know, this was common in Europe-- even if your language had a polite 'you', you used the T form with God. I don't think it was a mark of intimacy, it was a survival of ancient usage, back to the Vulgate.

The same is true in Russian: God is addressed with the informal Ты Ty - as far as I know, for similar reasons, going back to Old Church Slavonic.

This is completely off-topic for this thread, but somewhat related to the last few posts...

It's true that God gets an informal rather than a formal address in German. Another thing that's true is that the main word used to address God in German during prayer is "Herr". No additional name or title, just "Herr". In modern German, that's pretty much the only context in which the word "Herr" is used without being followed by a name or title.

I have to think of that whenever I see an English-language flamewar where someone calls someone else "Herr" in order to indicate that the other person is supposedly a nazi. "What, you worship me as your god...?"

I remember reading somewhere that in France, Catholics use Tu for addressing God (in line with the Latin tradition), while the Protestant Huguenots used Vous, as they found the t-form too familiar. I can't find the source right now. (German, FWIW, uses du, independent of denomination.)