Zompist Bboard Again

The German Civil Code, as a classic example of German over-meticulousness and extreme obsessive-compulsiveness, has more than 2000 sections dealing with all kinds of matters. And because it is so extremely meticulous, among its more than 2000 sections, there are four sections (961, 962, 963, 964) that deal specifically with matters related to domestic bee colonies that have escaped from their owners. One of these sections (963) deals specifically with the legal status of bee colonies that were formed when several bee colonies that had escaped from their owners merged with each other.

And ever since I first read that section, I've been wondering: Is that even biologically possible? I mean, aren't bee colonies bound to their queens and automatically hostile towards other bee colonies?

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:24 amAnd ever since I first read that section, I've been wondering: Is that even biologically possible? I mean, aren't bee colonies bound to their queens and automatically hostile towards other bee colonies?

What happens when a queen dies and--for whatever reason--there's no domestic replacement? Do all the bees in that colony just die off? Or do some of them abandon that colony and join another?

Here I thought this was going to be about the California ruling that bees are fish.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:15 am Here I thought this was going to be about the California ruling that bees are fish.

Sorry to disappoint you. Interesting that that story is from the Sacramento Bee.

Wait, the law that ruling was based on defined fish as "invertebrates"? Now I know how important basic scientific literacy among law makers is...

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:24 am The German Civil Code, as a classic example of German over-meticulousness and extreme obsessive-compulsiveness, has more than 2000 sections dealing with all kinds of matters. And because it is so extremely meticulous, among its more than 2000 sections, there are four sections (961, 962, 963, 964) that deal specifically with matters related to domestic bee colonies that have escaped from their owners. One of these sections (963) deals specifically with the legal status of bee colonies that were formed when several bee colonies that had escaped from their owners merged with each other.

Nothing particularly German about it I looked it up a bit; French law is similarly precise (though it doesn't mention merging swarms!). In fact this dates back at least to Justinian.

Bees naturally swarm in spring or summer. It's not an issue with modern bee-keeping techniques; but a major problem in pre-modern times.

And ever since I first read that section, I've been wondering: Is that even biologically possible? I mean, aren't bee colonies bound to their queens and automatically hostile towards other bee colonies?

Yep. For instance, a swarm can invade an established colony. The first thing the invaders will do is kill the local queen; eventually the new queen will be accepted. The bees will fight for a while, but they rely on smell: after a few hours both sides smell the same anyway and they can't tell the difference.

(You can't have two queens however. One of the queens will kill the other, if the workers don't get to it first.)

Ares Land wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:57 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:24 am The German Civil Code, as a classic example of German over-meticulousness and extreme obsessive-compulsiveness, has more than 2000 sections dealing with all kinds of matters. And because it is so extremely meticulous, among its more than 2000 sections, there are four sections (961, 962, 963, 964) that deal specifically with matters related to domestic bee colonies that have escaped from their owners. One of these sections (963) deals specifically with the legal status of bee colonies that were formed when several bee colonies that had escaped from their owners merged with each other.

Nothing particularly German about it I looked it up a bit; French law is similarly precise (though it doesn't mention merging swarms!). In fact this dates back at least to Justinian.

Bees naturally swarm in spring or summer. It's not an issue with modern bee-keeping techniques; but a major problem in pre-modern times.

This reminded me of the Swedish byggningabalken which somewhat famously has a chapter titled Om bi (’about bees’). Byggningabalken is one of the nine original balkar (’books’?) of 1734 års lag (The Code of 1734), which was the last complete revision of the law code in Sweden and which is the foundation of the modern statutory law of Sweden and Finland (which was a Swedish territory at the time).

The nine original ”balkar” has mostly been repealed, but byggningabalken remains mostly intact in Sweden and, as far as I understand, in Finland as well. Nowadays, it’s considered mostly obsolete, but people tend to like it since the archaic language and style, as well as the subject (life on the countryside in a pre-industrial era) is quite charming. In particular, law students tend to enjoy the 12th chapter (”Huru svin må i ollonskog släppas”) which deals with releasing pigs into acorn forrests (it helps that ”ollon” is a funny word).

Anyway, the 21st chapter about bees has two sections (”paragrafer”). The first section deals with the situation where someone’s bees fly into someone else’s forest. In that case, as far as I understand it, the owner of the bees has to follow the swarm and mark the tree where the bees landed. He should then tell the ”byamän” (the residents, or perhaps the landowners, of a village, who presumably had some sort of joint ownership over the forest). No one is allowed to take the bees from their owner. Unless the tree where the bees landed is protected, the owner of the bees is then allowed to cut down the tree without giving any compensation.

Very similar rules are found in earlier law codes, among them Magnus Erikssons landslag from ca 1350, which was the first attempt at a nationwide law in Sweden. I guess earlier Scandinavian law had similar rules as well.

Byggningabalken in its current version in Sweden can be found here:
https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-la ... 6-0123%201

The current Swedish language version in Finland can be found here:
https://www.finlex.fi/sv/laki/ajantasa/1734/17340002000

The version used in Sweden has a modernized spelling among a few other modernizations.

Magnus Erikssons landslag can be found here:
https://sv.wikisource.org/wiki/Magnus_E ... s_landslag

Ephraim: Wow, that's fascinating!

Ares Land wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:57 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:24 am The German Civil Code, as a classic example of German over-meticulousness and extreme obsessive-compulsiveness, has more than 2000 sections dealing with all kinds of matters. And because it is so extremely meticulous, among its more than 2000 sections, there are four sections (961, 962, 963, 964) that deal specifically with matters related to domestic bee colonies that have escaped from their owners. One of these sections (963) deals specifically with the legal status of bee colonies that were formed when several bee colonies that had escaped from their owners merged with each other.

Nothing particularly German about it I looked it up a bit; French law is similarly precise (though it doesn't mention merging swarms!). In fact this dates back at least to Justinian.

Interesting!

And ever since I first read that section, I've been wondering: Is that even biologically possible? I mean, aren't bee colonies bound to their queens and automatically hostile towards other bee colonies?

Yep. For instance, a swarm can invade an established colony. The first thing the invaders will do is kill the local queen; eventually the new queen will be accepted. The bees will fight for a while, but they rely on smell: after a few hours both sides smell the same anyway and they can't tell the difference.

Thank you, that finally answers my question!

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:24 am And ever since I first read that section, I've been wondering: Is that even biologically possible? I mean, aren't bee colonies bound to their queens and automatically hostile towards other bee colonies?

And I recall a bee-keeping manual discussing how to merge two colonies. Colonies that are too small can fail during the winter, so beekeepers can be motivated to merge colonies.

Richard W wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:08 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:24 am And ever since I first read that section, I've been wondering: Is that even biologically possible? I mean, aren't bee colonies bound to their queens and automatically hostile towards other bee colonies?

And I recall a bee-keeping manual discussing how to merge two colonies. Colonies that are too small can fail during the winter, so beekeepers can be motivated to merge colonies.

Thank you, interesting!