Zompist Bboard Again

am i correct in understanding that the concept of "correlatives" as people use it, and the tables they make of them for this or that language, was invented by zamenhof?? is this a "real" concept in linguistics? idgi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro-form

Don't stop at that page, read on to get a fuller picture.

Emily wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:50 pm am i correct in understanding that the concept of "correlatives" as people use it, and the tables they make of them for this or that language, was invented by zamenhof?? is this a "real" concept in linguistics? idgi

Yep, it’s definitely a real concept. Many languages even have Esperanto-like regular paradigms, e.g.: Kolyma Yukaghir (Pronouns, Bhat 2004:154):



Though the more usual term these days is ‘proforms’ rather than ‘correlatives’; the latter is the traditional IE term.

Emily wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:50 pm am i correct in understanding that the concept of "correlatives" as people use it, and the tables they make of them for this or that language, was invented by zamenhof?? is this a "real" concept in linguistics? idgi

Zamenhof didn't invent it. Back in the old forum I pointed out (while complaining about the repetition of this myth in the LCK) a couple German grammars of Latin from the time before Zamenhof was born that already used the term "correlatives" for the same concept in Latin.

EDIT: actually, it was in this new forum, and it was one grammar not two.

Emily wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:50 pmis this a "real" concept in linguistics? idgi

I'd also like to mention that it's a very uncommon concept in linguistics outside of the world of Latin / Ancient Greek and Esperanto / Ido.

Kuchigakatai wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:19 pm

Emily wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:50 pmis this a "real" concept in linguistics? idgi

I'd also like to mention that it's a very uncommon concept in linguistics outside of the world of Latin / Ancient Greek and Esperanto / Ido.

No, not at all. To take just one example, Bhat’s Pronouns (the same source as in my last post) has a whole two chapters on it, if not more that I’ve missed. Of course, that’s just one book, and it’s true that people mostly don’t pay much attention to it, but it definitely seems like a well-known concept.

I "invented" a table of correlatives for English as a child, and felt very proud of myself. Then I learned it had already been invented. If a literal moron could independently replicate this thing, I'm certain it's been done over and over countless time throughout history. Zamenhof just gets the credit.

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:45 pm

Kuchigakatai wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:19 pm

Emily wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:50 pmis this a "real" concept in linguistics? idgi

I'd also like to mention that it's a very uncommon concept in linguistics outside of the world of Latin / Ancient Greek and Esperanto / Ido.

No, not at all. To take just one example, Bhat’s Pronouns (the same source as in my last post) has a whole two chapters on it, if not more that I’ve missed. Of course, that’s just one book, and it’s true that people mostly don’t pay much attention to it, but it definitely seems like a well-known concept.

I still disagree, and I think Bhat is simply doing a good job there due to focusing on the phenomena of pronouns specifically. I rarely see reference grammars referring to correlative pronouns as such let alone with a table other than in the languages I mentioned.

Now, I'd agree the concept of correlative pairs (particularly of conjunctions like "so [adjective] that..." and "as [adjective] as [noun phrase]", not pronouns) and correlative constructions involving them is well-known, but not for correlative pronouns (in a table or not).

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sat Dec 03, 2022 12:31 am I "invented" a table of correlatives for English as a child, and felt very proud of myself. Then I learned it had already been invented. If a literal moron could independently replicate this thing, I'm certain it's been done over and over countless time throughout history. Zamenhof just gets the credit.

And here I wish, if only it were actually more common. I think it's a very useful concept.