Zompist Bboard Again

My dialect does not merge "pin" and "pen", but some common words have raised their vowel from [E] to [ I ] anyways. Even in careful speech I pronounce them with [ I ]. How common is this very partial raising ?

from /E/ :
get
many
them
then
when
went

from /eI/ :
again

And I can even think of one word that has *lowered* its vowel from [ i ] to [ I ]:
been

This is not unusual in some Scottish dialects; my wife's pronunciation of "seven", for example, sounds a lot like /sɪvən/.

jcb wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:40 am And I can even think of one word that has *lowered* its vowel from [ i ] to [ I ]:
been

This is normal for much of NAE, including my dialect.

jcb wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:40 am My dialect does not merge "pin" and "pen", but some common words have raised their vowel from [E] to [ I ] anyways. Even in careful speech I pronounce them with [ I ]. How common is this very partial raising ?

Words affected:
get

Yes, I have /ɪ/ in get, which I think is common, hence the pronunciation spelling git (unless I explicitly try to overenunciate it).

many

I have [ɛ] not [ɪ], at least in stressed position, e.g. in "Many of them...". (I guess I can imagine that "How many" might sound indistinguishable from /ˈhaʊmɪni/ to me, but I would think of the unstressed vowel in the second syllable as being a schwa/reduced vowel, not a lexical /ɪ/).

them
then
when

I usually have schwa here. While I don't have a stable distinction between schwa and unstressed [ɪ], I wouldn't identify their vowels as [ɪ] because I don't use that quality if I pronounce these words in stressed position.

And I can even think of one word that has *lowered* its vowel from [ i ] to [ I ]:
been

I'd say [ɪ] in been is shortening not lowering (the Oxford English Dictionary says the vowel shortened in Early Modern English, with a possible alternative modern outcome of /bɛn/).

Labov talks about raising of various vowels before nasals... I'd have to look up the details.

(Also, to avoid BBCode troubles with [i], you can use the bk button in the editor.)

I notice I have basically a similar but opposite situation - randomly lowering the "bit" vowel to the "bet" vowel for a handful of words, like "milk" and "pillow". I think there are examples without an L, but I can't think of any.

The only word, though, on that list I use the "bit" vowel for is "been".

mocha wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:41 am I notice I have basically a similar but opposite situation - randomly lowering the "bit" vowel to the "bet" vowel for a handful of words, like "milk" and "pillow". I think there are examples without an L, but I can't think of any.

The only word, though, on that list I use the "bit" vowel for is "been".

Some people here such as my mother (and sometimes myself when I do not allow spelling pronunciation to influence my speech) have /ɛ/ in milk, and notably my dialect has /ɛ/llinois.

This is normal for much of NAE, including my dialect.

I'm from the american upper midwest, so that fits.

This is not unusual in some Scottish dialects; my wife's pronunciation of "seven", for example, sounds a lot like /sɪvən/.

"seven" still has /E/ for me.

I usually have schwa here. While I don't have a stable distinction between schwa and unstressed [ɪ], I wouldn't identify their vowels as [ɪ] because I don't use that quality if I pronounce these words in stressed position.

"them" could have /@/ for me when the /D/ is elided and spelt " 'em ", but it's still /I/ otherwise.

Labov talks about raising of various vowels before nasals... I'd have to look up the details.

1 : but "get" has no nasal
2 : I still have plenty of words with /E/ followed by a nasal that have /not/ raised their vowel.
- "enter, append, bend, bent, fend, men, mend, tent, tend, dent, sent, send, hen, lent, lend, wren"
3 : "can" (only the verb, not the noun) is raised to /E/ from /{/, maybe that's related ? But I also have a bunch of other words that don't have a nasal that have raised their /{/ to /E/ : "alpha, alkali, calcium, calculate", but the triggering factor here seems to be the L (but I also have words that defy this ! : "algorithm, Albert")
4 : "again" : I just realized that this word also raised its vowel to /I/, from /eI/ this time.
5 : "went" : found another

I notice I have basically a similar but opposite situation - randomly lowering the "bit" vowel to the "bet" vowel for a handful of words, like "milk" and "pillow". I think there are examples without an L, but I can't think of any.

Some people here such as my mother (and sometimes myself when I do not allow spelling pronunciation to influence my speech) have /ɛ/ in milk, and notably my dialect has /ɛ/llinois.

Interesting. I still have /I/ for all those words.

I've noticed something similar but opposite, in my dialect of Western American English -- many words have their vowels irregularly lowered in the opposite direction. I call it the since-sense merger because the merger causes since to merge into sense.

Here are some words with the sound change:

- since
- milk
- begin
- vanilla
- disintegrate

Also, if you count it as such (as it occurs before /r/ which changes vowels), the shift from /i:/ to /e:/ in the word miracle could be something similar. The word semitic is only sporadically affected.

The only pattern I've noticed is that it tends to happen in stressed syllables, and adjacent to a nasal, but I can't really find any other pattern. Has anyone in this dialect area noticed anything similar or does anyone know of any other words similarly affected?

mocha wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:41 am I notice I have basically a similar but opposite situation - randomly lowering the "bit" vowel to the "bet" vowel for a handful of words, like "milk" and "pillow". I think there are examples without an L, but I can't think of any.

The only word, though, on that list I use the "bit" vowel for is "been".

Sorry, I only read this after I made my own post here. What about antisemitic? I've seen that vowel lowered a lot, with no adjacent /l/.

abahot wrote: ↑Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:33 pm

mocha wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:41 am I notice I have basically a similar but opposite situation - randomly lowering the "bit" vowel to the "bet" vowel for a handful of words, like "milk" and "pillow". I think there are examples without an L, but I can't think of any.

The only word, though, on that list I use the "bit" vowel for is "been".

Sorry, I only read this after I made my own post here. What about antisemitic? I've seen that vowel lowered a lot, with no adjacent /l/.

I have this as well as in just semitic but not the others.

abahot wrote: ↑Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:33 pm

mocha wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:41 am I notice I have basically a similar but opposite situation - randomly lowering the "bit" vowel to the "bet" vowel for a handful of words, like "milk" and "pillow". I think there are examples without an L, but I can't think of any.

The only word, though, on that list I use the "bit" vowel for is "been".

Sorry, I only read this after I made my own post here. What about antisemitic? I've seen that vowel lowered a lot, with no adjacent /l/.

I have DRESS in (anti-)sem/ɛ/tic myself even though I tend to not have /ɪ/ > /ɛ/ aside from in Illinois and possibly milk.

jcb wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:40 amfrom /E/ :
get
...

Yesterday a Ukrainian friend shared a video of a friend of his singing in English and his pronunciation of get as [ɡɛt] was something that leapt out at me immediately. I would have a similar reaction to hearing pretty with stressed /ɛ/.

I occasionally see the humourous respelling "yiss" for yes, which I think represents a particular affected pronunciation rather than a default pronunciation with [ɪ]. (Cf. yass, where the vowel is lowered rather than raised.)

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 3:30 pm

jcb wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:40 amfrom /E/ :
get
...

Yesterday a Ukrainian friend shared a video of a friend of his singing in English and his pronunciation of get as [ɡɛt] was something that leapt out at me immediately. I would have a similar reaction to hearing pretty with stressed /ɛ/.

I am used to DRESS and DRESS alone in get (even though properly speaking I have [ɜ] for it here rather than [ɛ] except when speaking carefully, and even then what I have sounds more like [ɛ̠]); using KIT sounds, well, like is affecting an accent to my ears.

I should note, though, that I do have KIT in pretty (of course, I normally elide the /t/ in it...)

abahot wrote: ↑Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:33 pm

mocha wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:41 am I notice I have basically a similar but opposite situation - randomly lowering the "bit" vowel to the "bet" vowel for a handful of words, like "milk" and "pillow". I think there are examples without an L, but I can't think of any.

The only word, though, on that list I use the "bit" vowel for is "been".

Sorry, I only read this after I made my own post here. What about antisemitic? I've seen that vowel lowered a lot, with no adjacent /l/.

I don't have that lowering in (anti)semitic, although I feel like I have heard that from others before...

/ɡɪt/ for <ɡet> is on the edɡe of my repertoire - it’s a stylistic variant. When I was young, I used /ˈɪnɪ/ and /ˈmɪnɪ/ for <any> and <many>, but I don’t know whether it was East Anglian or Estuarine.

I have no recollection of any raising in <them, then, when, went>.

For <again>, ɪ believe the more standard pronunciation is /əˈɡen/ rather /əˈɡeɪn/.

Richard W wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 4:14 pm For <again>, ɪ believe the more standard pronunciation is /əˈɡen/ rather /əˈɡeɪn/.

DRESS is standard for again here in the US, with FACE being primarily a rare sung or poetic variant.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 4:34 pmDRESS is standard for again here in the US, with FACE being primarily a rare sung or poetic variant.

Same pretty much everywhere.

One of my pet hates is when a song will rhyme "again" with a FACE word but still say it with the DRESS vowel. Like, you've got the option to make it rhyme and it's clearly meant to and you're just choosing to say the variant that doesn't rhyme? Why??? I'm pretty sure I've heard it the other way too, with agayne rhyming with a DRESS word, but "again" with the FACE vowel is pretty uncommon and affected, so I guess that's why it's more common one way than the other ... but, like, don't write your rhyme that way if you're not going to say it?!

Imralu wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 7:50 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 4:34 pmDRESS is standard for again here in the US, with FACE being primarily a rare sung or poetic variant.

Same pretty much everywhere.

One of my pet hates is when a song will rhyme "again" with a FACE word but still say it with the DRESS vowel. Like, you've got the option to make it rhyme and it's clearly meant to and you're just choosing to say the variant that doesn't rhyme? Why??? I'm pretty sure I've heard it the other way too, with agayne rhyming with a DRESS word, but "again" with the FACE vowel is pretty uncommon and affected, so I guess that's why it's more common one way than the other ... but, like, don't write your rhyme that way if you're not going to say it?!

My immediate thought is are these songs sung as covers?