Zompist Bboard Again

I started a German Politics Thread because I did not know anywhere else to put this. I was reading about the Historikerstreit and found myself utterly appalled by the "conservative" side in it (I put "conservative" in quotes because they really seemed like a bunch of complete Nazis even though they were described as "conservative"). They seemed to be, in effect, attempting to justify the Holocaust. What was even more appalling was that this was treated as legitimate historical discourse in Germany at the time - and I thought that espousing National Socialism was banned in Germany too. (For those not in the know, the Historikerstreit took place in West Germany in the mid-1980's.) Of course, there were plenty of historians and commentators that vigorously opposed the "conservatives" here, but simply the fact that the "conservatives" were given the time of the day is unacceptable to me. It is as if serious, "mainstream" historians here in the US actually attempted to defend slavery - even amongst neo-Confederates here in the US they generally avoid publicly attempting to apologize for slavery.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 11:22 am What was even more appalling was that this was treated as legitimate historical discourse in Germany at the time - and I thought that espousing National Socialism was banned in Germany too.

What's actually banned for individuals (groups are a different matter) is incitement to hatred against groups within the population - so the problem is how to prove that people speaking in code did that.

Edited to add: basically, the nazi sympathisers were engaging in large-scale whataboutism - that is, of course, repulsive, but difficult to use to prove incitement.

Well, I mean... on the one hand, yes, apalling, not one step back, no pasarán blabla but, on the other hand, what else was to be expected? the nazis weren't like totally purged from the state, as I understand it a lot of the judges in early post-war germany were nazis, or ex-nazis (one can never tell). It wasn't as shameless as with Franco's spain, where the fascists kept in power, streets kept their fascist names etcetera, but, especially after Adenauer, well, many ex-nazis who had been high-level accountants or whatever simply went back to their jobs.

And honestly, it's likely reasonable that the purges and the denazification went as far as they did and not too much further: losing a war, traumatic as it probably is, isn't going to change everyone's minds. A lot of germans, according to the wiki for denazification, still held on to pretty nazi ideas in the fifties and sixties: and honestly, what else can you expect? sure, the US psych warfare division did what it could (it really makes my skin crawl to wish that the US mass brainwashing experts had done a better job), but ultimately, people don't always get their minds changed by being held at gunpoint and/or being shown explicit footage with "THIS IS YOUR FAULT" on the bottom: the true believers, or those most stubborn, or those in a certain age bracket... they just shut up, or turn to dogwhistles. the same thing was probably the case in Japan, the same thing probably happens in the american south (no Eddy intended), or amongst the right-wing in Chile: germany *was* a nazi society, after all, where nazism had sort of become common sense. and just like musical taste, sometimes things just grab root in a man's soul and stay there.

The thing that gets me about this is that while I always knew that de-Nazification in Germany was very partial at best, I had never realized how deeply Nazism was embedded in West German society even in the 1980's. I had always kind of assumed that fascism in Germany by that point was limited to your skinhead neo-Nazi types and their ilk.

it never is, brother. it never is.

Torco wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 6:32 pm it never is, brother. it never is.

Exactly.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 4:57 pm The thing that gets me about this is that while I always knew that de-Nazification in Germany was very partial at best, I had never realized how deeply Nazism was embedded in West German society even in the 1980's. I had always kind of assumed that fascism in Germany by that point was limited to your skinhead neo-Nazi types and their ilk.

Keep in mind that the 1980s were early enough in history that a lot of people who were old enough to have been active during the 1933-1945 run - and waaaaaay too old for any postwar youth cultures - were still young enough to take an active role in public life.

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 2:56 am Keep in mind that the 1980s were early enough in history that a lot of people who were old enough to have been active during the 1933-1945 run - and waaaaaay too old for any postwar youth cultures - were still young enough to take an active role in public life.

It makes sense in that someone who was 20 in 1945 would have been 60 in 1985, something that I had not really thought about.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 9:12 am
It makes sense in that someone who was 20 in 1945 would have been 60 in 1985, something that I had not really thought about.

IIRC, you and me both belong to a generation for whom the 1980s were not that long ago, while World War 2 was ages ago.

the future is now old man

And now there's drama in the Berlin city government. After February's election re-run, the leaders of the CDU and the SPD agreed to form a coalition, but large parts of the SPD were fairly unhappy with it (I don't know about the CDU). Today, the CDU's leader, some guy named Kai Wegner, was supposed to get elected Mayor by the city House of Delegates. But he's now failed on two ballots, although he "just" needed 80 out of 159 votes, and the CDU and SPD combined have 86 seats. He got 71 votes on the first ballot and 79 votes on the second ballot. The ballots are secret.

Now, the House has been adjourned and a meeting of the House's Council of Elders has been called. In German legislatures, the Council of Elders is a kind of special committee in charge of the legislature's internal affairs. Apparently, there are disagreements about how to interpret the fine print of the legal provisions that should theoretically tell us how to handle a situation like this.

OK, the third ballot has started. In the third ballot, a candidate needs only a plurality to get elected, so Wegner should theoretically make it this time.

In the elections for a number of offices in Germany, the standard procedure is that first, there are up to two ballots in which a candidate needs an outright majority, and if that doesn't work out, there's a third ballot in which a plurality is enough. That system, frankly, looks like complete nonsense to me. What's the point of the first two ballots with their majority requirement if anyone who's got a plurality safely behind them is certain to get elected on the third ballot, anyway?

Wegner now got elected with 86 votes on the third ballot.

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Apr 27, 2023 9:07 am And now there's drama in the Berlin city government. After February's election re-run, the leaders of the CDU and the SPD agreed to form a coalition, but large parts of the SPD were fairly unhappy with it (I don't know about the CDU).

According to the reports I read, it was never controversial in the CDU - their only other options would have been a coalition with the Greens (something which they are comfortable with in other states nowadays, but not a really preferred option) or opposition. The SPD could have opted for continuing the left coalition with the Left party and the Greens, and would have provided the governing mayor in that set-up; up to now I have seen no good explanation why they opted for the "Grand" coalition with the CDU. (But I guess that the more centrist parts of the SPD were uncomfortable with the increased clout the Greens and the Left combined with the left wing of the SPD would have had in that set-up compared to the previous coalition, in which the SPD was stronger.)

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Apr 27, 2023 9:27 am In the elections for a number of offices in Germany, the standard procedure is that first, there are up to two ballots in which a candidate needs an outright majority, and if that doesn't work out, there's a third ballot in which a plurality is enough. That system, frankly, looks like complete nonsense to me. What's the point of the first two ballots with their majority requirement if anyone who's got a plurality safely behind them is certain to get elected on the third ballot, anyway?

This is meant to provide room for regrouping coalitions / bringing in compromise candidates in open outcome situations. It doesn't really help in cases like this, where the coalition partners have agreed the outcome beforehand, and then a number of deputies of one party doesn't go along.

Continuing the "red-red-green" coalition would have seemed like flouting the voice of the voters and clinging to power - the SPD had suffered massive losses in the election.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Thu Apr 27, 2023 3:09 pm Continuing the "red-red-green" coalition would have seemed like flouting the voice of the voters and clinging to power - the SPD had suffered massive losses in the election.

I don't think that, say, the CDU would have done the same thing. After all, the old coalition still has a majority.

I've heard that there's an informal convention along those lines in Dutch politics - something like "every governing coalition must include at least one party that got a bigger share of the vote than at the previous election" - but I've never heard of anyone applying that norm in Germany before.

And now for some bad news: the AfD got their first executive government post, when they won a runoff election for a post roughly equivalent to a county executive in the US on Sunday, in a district in Thuringia.

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 7:56 pm And now for some bad news: the AfD got their first executive government post, when they won a runoff election for a post roughly equivalent to a county executive in the US on Sunday, in a district in Thuringia.

I misread that as referring to the Wikipedia: Articles for Deletion and was momentarily befuddled.

Man in Space wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 8:55 pmI misread that as referring to the Wikipedia: Articles for Deletion and was momentarily befuddled.

I generally assume that people in this thread know the basics of German political terminology. Those who don't can go here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dat ... sp=sharing