"centrism"

[Linguoboy]

he lacks any odious political beliefs (to me he appears to be a basically a centrist)

Being a centrist is one of the most odious political beliefs one can have.

[Raphael]

Being a centrist is one of the most odious political beliefs one can have.

What, exactly, do you mean by "centrist"? That term is even less well-defined than everything else in political terminology, and that's saying something.

[Travis B.]

Linus is famous for being a centrist - he was quoted as saying, in 1999, "I'm absolutely uninterested in politics," - and has been criticized for it (in reaction to people favoring his views over those of RMS). Apparently, though, he did oppose the actions of the Bush 43 administration. Once he became a US citizen in 2010 he did declare that he wasn't aligned with any particular political party. He has made comments supporting the way that broad coalition governments operate in Finland w.r.t. how they moderate the influence of any particular tendency. Apparently this is in reaction to the politics of his parents, who met at a protest rally (his father Nils Torvalds, now an MEP, is well-known for having been a big-C Communist in the past). Of course, this makes Linus's actual political beliefs rather blurry, but I'd say I find nothing about them that I'd object to, unlike big-L Libertarian types like Eric S. Raymond.

[Linguoboy]

Being a centrist is one of the most odious political beliefs one can have.

What, exactly, do you mean by "centrist"? That term is even less well-defined than everything else in political terminology, and that's saying something.

For me the heart of centrism is both-sidesism. Elon Musk[*] recently provided an excellent example by tweeting "For Twitter to deserve public trust, it must be politically neutral, which effectively means upsetting the far right and the far left equally." This on a platform infested with actual Nazis. In the current environment, centrists enable far-right extremists, and there's something particularly awful to me about insisting you're not a Nazi while promoting policies that allow Nazis to thrive.

[*] For the record, I don't think he's an actual centrist but a right-winger who pays lip service to centrism in an doomed attempt to make his brand appear less toxic.

[Raphael]

Linus is famous for being a centrist - he was quoted as saying, in 1999, "I'm absolutely uninterested in politics,"

That sounds like a rather weird idea of what "centrist" means. So Gilbert and Sullivan were wrong, and in fact, every little boy or girl - or non-binary child - who's born alive is actually a little centrist, and might just potentially become something else later?

[Raphael]

For me the heart of centrism is both-sidesism.

Oh, if that's what you mean, then I don't really disagree with you. "Nazis and non-nazis are equally bad" is a completely [fill in large number of unfriendly words] attitude.

[Linguoboy]

Linus is famous for being a centrist - he was quoted as saying, in 1999, "I'm absolutely uninterested in politics,"

That sounds like a rather weird idea of what "centrist" means.

That's not centrism, that's just apathy. (Though it has similar consequences to active centrism.)

[Ares Land]

That's not centrism, that's just apathy. (Though it has similar consequences to active centrism.)

I was curious and googled Linus Torvalds politics a bit. Not terribly active in that department, but he did endorse Obama, call himself a liberal, and kicked out anti-vaxxers with a (deserved) chewing out on the Linux kernel mailing list. So not entirely apathetic, apparently.

[Travis B.]

Being a centrist is one of the most odious political beliefs one can have.

What, exactly, do you mean by "centrist"? That term is even less well-defined than everything else in political terminology, and that's saying something.

For me the heart of centrism is both-sidesism. Elon Musk[*] recently provided an excellent example by tweeting "For Twitter to deserve public trust, it must be politically neutral, which effectively means upsetting the far right and the far left equally." This on a platform infested with actual Nazis. In the current environment, centrists enable far-right extremists, and there's something particularly awful to me about insisting you're not a Nazi while promoting policies that allow Nazis to thrive.

[*] For the record, I don't think he's an actual centrist but a right-winger who pays lip service to centrism in an doomed attempt to make his brand appear less toxic.

Associating centrism with Elon Musk-ism is essentially saying that everyone who is not explicitly left-wing is enabling the Nazis if they are not a Nazi themselves. I personally am by no means a centrist, but I do acknowledge the existence of an actual political center (and center-left, and center-right) rather than equating everyone who isn't leftist per se with rightists who are merely pretending to not be rightists or at least passive enablers of the right. Calling people who don't consistently vote Democrat but who aren't really right-wing per se Nazis is a good plan for convincing them to join our cause. (I would say that those who won't vote Democrat because they aren't left-wing enough are rather misguided.)

[Linguoboy]

Associating centrism with Elon Musk-ism is essentially saying that everyone who is not explicitly left-wing is enabling the Nazis if they are not a Nazi themselves.

Only if you equate being anti-fascist with being explicitly left-wing. I think it's possible to have moderate political views and still vigorously oppose extremism.

Calling people who don't consistently vote Democrat but who aren't really right-wing per se Nazis is a good plan for convincing them to join our cause.

Good thing I'm not doing that!

[Travis B.]

Associating centrism with Elon Musk-ism is essentially saying that everyone who is not explicitly left-wing is enabling the Nazis if they are not a Nazi themselves.

Only if you equate being anti-fascist with being explicitly left-wing. I think it's possible to have moderate political views and still vigorously oppose extremism.

Calling people who don't consistently vote Democrat but who aren't really right-wing per se Nazis is a good plan for convincing them to join our cause.

Good thing I'm not doing that!

To you "centrism" must have a different meaning than it does to me - "centrism" to me refers to being neither particularly left-wing nor particularly right-wing. "Center-left" means to be mildly left-wing, and "center-right" means to be mildly right-wing. It does not mean tolerating fascism under the guise of being "balanced". Anti-fascism is perfectly compatible with centrism, to say the very least. "Centrism" without opposition to fascism isn't centrist. (Likewise, "centrism" without opposition to big-C Communism isn't centrist either.)

[Raphael]

There are few terms in politics that are used by everyone with the same meaning. And "centrist" is clearly not among them.

[zompist]

There are few terms in politics that are used by everyone with the same meaning. And "centrist" is clearly not among them.

I don't think that's the problem... it's reasonably clear who the centrists are. I think the context is confusing here: linguoboy used an example of both-sides-ism from Musk, and it was a centrist comment, but Musk himself is right-wing.

In US politics, both-sides-ism almost always leans right. It minimizes the actual anti-democratic and increasingly violent GOP behavior and provides misinformation about the left (pretending that the left is doing the same things).

[Ares Land]

it was a centrist comment, but Musk himself is right-wing.

That seems to be generally the problem with centrism. As far as I'm concerned anyway -- I have nothing against centrism in principle but in practice it often turns out to be a facade for conservatism.

[Raphael]

I have nothing against centrism in principle

I'd still maintain that "centrism" is too vaguely defined for anyone to have a well thought-out position on it in general. There are political positions which might be described as "centrist" about which my opinion isn't any better than Linguoboy's. There are other political positions which might be described as "centrist" with which I partially agree.

[Travis B.]

There are few terms in politics that are used by everyone with the same meaning. And "centrist" is clearly not among them.

I don't think that's the problem... it's reasonably clear who the centrists are. I think the context is confusing here: linguoboy used an example of both-sides-ism from Musk, and it was a centrist comment, but Musk himself is right-wing.

In US politics, both-sides-ism almost always leans right. It minimizes the actual anti-democratic and increasingly violent GOP behavior and provides misinformation about the left (pretending that the left is doing the same things).

What you (and linguoboy) refer to seems to be efforts to defend the right on the basis of thin and dishonest whataboutism and then pretend that one is "centist". That is rather distinct from what I associate with the word centrism, which is to have very moderate political positions.

[Linguoboy]

What you (and linguoboy) refer to seems to be efforts to defend the right on the basis of thin and dishonest whataboutism and then pretend that one is "centist". That is rather distinct from what I associate with the word centrism, which is to have very moderate political positions.

Would it help if I posted centrist opinions from actual centrists?

When Howard Schultz floated a presidential bid in the last cycle, he declared, "I will run as a centrist independent, outside of the two-party system." Listen to the rest of the interview and you find it peppered with statements like this:

• "[B]oth parties are consistently not doing what's necessary on behalf of the American people and are engaged, every single day, in revenge politics."
• "I look at both parties. We see extremes on both sides. Well, we are sitting today with approximately $21.5 trillion of debt, which is a reckless example, not only of Republicans, but of Democrats, as well, as a reckless failure of their constitutional responsibility."
• "I'm on both sides of the equation. I'm somebody who has been — who is successful, I'm somebody who came from the projects, and I understand the American people."

What is this other than the bothsidesism I describe above?

[Travis B.]

What you (and linguoboy) refer to seems to be efforts to defend the right on the basis of thin and dishonest whataboutism and then pretend that one is "centist". That is rather distinct from what I associate with the word centrism, which is to have very moderate political positions.

Would it help if I posted centrist opinions from actual centrists?

When Howard Schultz floated a presidential bid in the last cycle, he declared, "I will run as a centrist independent, outside of the two-party system." Listen to the rest of the interview and you find it peppered with statements like this:

• "[B]oth parties are consistently not doing what's necessary on behalf of the American people and are engaged, every single day, in revenge politics."
• "I look at both parties. We see extremes on both sides. Well, we are sitting today with approximately $21.5 trillion of debt, which is a reckless example, not only of Republicans, but of Democrats, as well, as a reckless failure of their constitutional responsibility."
• "I'm on both sides of the equation. I'm somebody who has been — who is successful, I'm somebody who came from the projects, and I understand the American people."

What is this other than the bothsidesism I describe above?

See, I don't see this as really being centrism per se - if anything, it stinks strongly of rightist rhetoric, just with the label of "centrist" painted on it to make it seem respectable and to fool those too dumb not to see it for what it is.

[Linguoboy]

See, I don't see this as really being centrism per se - if anything, it stinks strongly of rightist rhetoric, just with the label of "centrist" painted on it to make it seem respectable and to fool those too dumb not to see it for what it is.

But Schultz' claims of being "centrist" were not widely contested at the time (which may simply be evidence of how successful the GOP has been at yanking the Overton window to the right--FFS, they're now trying to roll back child labour laws now).

This is one of the better attempts I've seen to provide a positive description of "centrism" as a coherent ideology as opposed to a misguided attempt to triangulate between Democratic and Republican party platforms: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... s-centrism.

I think two things worth noting are:

1. It's fundamentally establishmentarianist (which explains why it so easily ends up shading into conservatism).
2. It's very much a minority stance (less than 4% of the electorate, according to the estimates in the article).

[Travis B.]

About both-sides-ism per se, one thing that does remind me of is the rhetoric of the original fascists, which was that they were ostensibly against both "capitalism" and "Communism" in that they supported a corporatist state. (Of course, in reality, they were very much pro-capitalist.) But I don't equate centrism with fascism though; rather to me people like Biden (mildly center-left) and Merkel (mildly center-right) are pretty centrist to me.